Sudanese Short Sword or Long Knife?

Miguel · 29th July 2015, 08:48 PM

Hi Everyone,
Thought some members may be interested in this item. From researching books And the web I believe it to be a short sword of the Sudan of a design influenced by the Arabs, I also believe that it is from the Darfur region. The hilt is similar to the hilts of Kordofan swords and Egerton of Tatton makes reference to a sword in his collection item 197 in his book of a sword having a similar hilt, which he attributes to Arab influence, used in the Sudan and made in Dongala. My sword or long knife is 20.75ins overall with a blade length of 15.25ins and width of 1.375ins. The hilt is made from ivory and horn with a downturned pommel. The scabbard is made from the skin of a whole young crocodile. I hope you find it interestinand would welcome any comments you may have on it`s place of origin.
Regards
Miguel

Jim McDougall · 30th July 2015, 04:49 AM

Hi Miguel,
A most interesting Nilotic sword, and as you note, these are typically regarded as from Dongola, actually on the Nile. This form is regarded as associated with this region in Egerton, as well as other references I have seen.
I would note that the triple fullers and the dukari (moons) are clearly spuriously applied, of course in imitation of the blades typically seen in the Sahara on takouba. The blades on these swords of the 19th c. typically had crocodile image engraved lengthwise on the blade, but never as far as I have known have they used this motif.

May I ask more on your note suggesting this may be from Darfur?

These are most interesting form and not typically seen among the swords and edged weapons of these areas.

Miguel · 31st July 2015, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Miguel,
A most interesting Nilotic sword, and as you note, these are typically regarded as from Dongola, actually on the Nile. This form is regarded as associated with this region in Egerton, as well as other references I have seen.
I would note that the triple fullers and the dukari (moons) are clearly spuriously applied, of course in imitation of the blades typically seen in the Sahara on takouba. The blades on these swords of the 19th c. typically had crocodile image engraved lengthwise on the blade, but never as far as I have known have they used this motif.

May I ask more on your note suggesting this may be from Darfur?

These are most interesting form and not typically seen among the swords and edged weapons of these areas.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your comments which I entirely agree with. Your query re my reference to Darfur set me thinking as I had assumed that Kordofan was part of this region and should have said this and not mentioned Darfur which just shows my ignorance of this area. I also failed to mention that the design of the hilt is almost identical to hilts shown on some Arab long knives from Ethiopia and Somalia also there is a good resemblance on some sword hilts from the Cameroon. I`m sorry for the mistake but I do find the Sudan very confusing.
Regards

Miguel

colin henshaw · 30th July 2015, 01:18 PM

A fine piece, thanks for posting. Looks like it was made for tribal use, rather than selling. I've always found these difficult to pin down exactly as to the Sudanese area of origin, so any information on this is welcome.

Iain · 30th July 2015, 03:14 PM

Dongola is the best attribution I've ever seen if a tad imprecise still.

This one looks decidedly 20th century based on the blade.

Miguel · 31st July 2015, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Dongola is the best attribution I've ever seen if a tad imprecise still.

This one looks decidedly 20th century based on the blade.

Hi Ian,

I`m not sure of the age of this weapon but must admit to thinking it was more 19thC than 20thC as you so firmly comment. I would be grateful if you could give me a few pointers as to how you arrived at the 20thC as I am still learning.
Regards
Miguel

Iain · 31st July 2015, 11:10 PM

Hi Miguel,

My comment is based on a few aspects. Mainly to do with the shape and form of the blade.

The piece you have exhibited has rough "fullers" or grooves which are made by grinding, not forging, and the marks in the blade are a degenerative style of half moon marks, these are clear indications of non-European manufacture.

These factors in conjunction with the style of the hilt are why I would attribute this to the 20th century.

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2015, 09:55 PM

Hi Miguel,
Thank you for the kind response, and I would note that most of us indeed find the complexities of the Sudan, North Africa, and the tribal and colonial aspects very very confusing. The good thing is that serious and tenacious scholars such as Iain in recent years here, have incredibly advanced our knowledge and understanding of these.
It is often hard to concisely explain some of the more subtle nuances of these weapons, but it seems the more modern examples reflect various identifying and characteristic features of much earlier ones. Often these are almost caricatures of the originals, and often much cruder.

It must be remembered that these tribal peoples are of course very traditional, and often these more modern interpretations of much older weapons are intended for various genuine purposes among them.
Many weapons are now ceremonial or traditional accoutrements, and of course often sold to anxious tourists on opportunity. Therefore, although not expressly 'tourist' they often become 'souveniers'.
In my opinion, your example seems to be a sound and intriguing example of just such a weapon with this kind of traditional integrity. Very nice .

Miguel · 2nd August 2015, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Miguel,

My comment is based on a few aspects. Mainly to do with the shape and form of the blade.

The piece you have exhibited has rough "fullers" or grooves which are made by grinding, not forging, and the marks in the blade are a degenerative style of half moon marks, these are clear indications of non-European manufacture.

These factors in conjunction with the style of the hilt are why I would attribute this to the 20th century.

Hi Ian,
Many thanks for your comments I find trying to date a Sudanese item almost impossible and am extremely grateful for your help.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 31st July 2015, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

A fine piece, thanks for posting. Looks like it was made for tribal use, rather than selling. I've always found these difficult to pin down exactly as to the Sudanese area of origin, so any information on this is welcome.

Hi Colin
Thanks for your interest, however as you will see from my reply to Jim I also find the Sudan confusing.
Regards
Miguel

29th July 2015, 08:48 PM	#1
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Sudanese Short Sword or Long Knife? Hi Everyone, Thought some members may be interested in this item. From researching books And the web I believe it to be a short sword of the Sudan of a design influenced by the Arabs, I also believe that it is from the Darfur region. The hilt is similar to the hilts of Kordofan swords and Egerton of Tatton makes reference to a sword in his collection item 197 in his book of a sword having a similar hilt, which he attributes to Arab influence, used in the Sudan and made in Dongala. My sword or long knife is 20.75ins overall with a blade length of 15.25ins and width of 1.375ins. The hilt is made from ivory and horn with a downturned pommel. The scabbard is made from the skin of a whole young crocodile. I hope you find it interestinand would welcome any comments you may have on it`s place of origin. Regards Miguel Attached Images

30th July 2015, 04:49 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Miguel, A most interesting Nilotic sword, and as you note, these are typically regarded as from Dongola, actually on the Nile. This form is regarded as associated with this region in Egerton, as well as other references I have seen. I would note that the triple fullers and the dukari (moons) are clearly spuriously applied, of course in imitation of the blades typically seen in the Sahara on takouba. The blades on these swords of the 19th c. typically had crocodile image engraved lengthwise on the blade, but never as far as I have known have they used this motif. May I ask more on your note suggesting this may be from Darfur? These are most interesting form and not typically seen among the swords and edged weapons of these areas.

30th July 2015, 01:18 PM	#4
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	A fine piece, thanks for posting. Looks like it was made for tribal use, rather than selling. I've always found these difficult to pin down exactly as to the Sudanese area of origin, so any information on this is welcome.

30th July 2015, 03:14 PM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Dongola is the best attribution I've ever seen if a tad imprecise still. This one looks decidedly 20th century based on the blade.

31st July 2015, 11:10 PM	#7
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Miguel, My comment is based on a few aspects. Mainly to do with the shape and form of the blade. The piece you have exhibited has rough "fullers" or grooves which are made by grinding, not forging, and the marks in the blade are a degenerative style of half moon marks, these are clear indications of non-European manufacture. These factors in conjunction with the style of the hilt are why I would attribute this to the 20th century.

1st August 2015, 09:55 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Miguel, Thank you for the kind response, and I would note that most of us indeed find the complexities of the Sudan, North Africa, and the tribal and colonial aspects very very confusing. The good thing is that serious and tenacious scholars such as Iain in recent years here, have incredibly advanced our knowledge and understanding of these. It is often hard to concisely explain some of the more subtle nuances of these weapons, but it seems the more modern examples reflect various identifying and characteristic features of much earlier ones. Often these are almost caricatures of the originals, and often much cruder. It must be remembered that these tribal peoples are of course very traditional, and often these more modern interpretations of much older weapons are intended for various genuine purposes among them. Many weapons are now ceremonial or traditional accoutrements, and of course often sold to anxious tourists on opportunity. Therefore, although not expressly 'tourist' they often become 'souveniers'. In my opinion, your example seems to be a sound and intriguing example of just such a weapon with this kind of traditional integrity. Very nice .