New yataghan

erlikhan · 27th November 2005, 11:07 PM

Hi.I acquired this yataghan recently. silver scabbard, walrus hilt and both sides silver inlay. length 83 cm. Has 1215 ( 1799) as date. can anybody translate the Arabic inscriptions please?

regards

Battara · 28th November 2005, 04:32 AM

Impressive. The silver work is in great shape.

Dom · 28th November 2005, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

can anybody translate the Arabic inscriptions please?

Hi
on the first pic (from right to left) the date seem's to be 1315 more than 1215, anyway the hegire 1 is 622, either
1315 + 622 = 1937
1215 + 622 = 1837
but 1799 ??

the first group of letters could (?) be "Ali", the (?) because it's arabic alphabet letters, but without clear meaning,
the second group is not letters, just signs without arabic relation

on the second pic, all signs are not arabic letters

, even if their design seems to be oriental
anyway, this yataghan is really wonderfull

à +

Dom

ariel · 28th November 2005, 07:47 PM

Dom,
You need to use conversion calendar: Islamic year is lunar!
Please check this:
http://www.oriold.unizh.ch/static/hegira.html

1215 H= 1800 Gregorian
1315 H = 1897 Gregorian
Lovely yataghan: somehow reminds me of Greek/Balkan origin: handle, dolphin, silverwork...

Dom · 28th November 2005, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Dom,
You need to use conversion calendar: Islamic year is lunar!
Please check this:
http://www.oriold.unizh.ch/static/hegira.html
1215 H= 1800 Gregorian
1315 H = 1897 Gregorian

I need badly to back to school

u r correct

à +

Dom

erlikhan · 28th November 2005, 11:53 PM

ariel, thank you very much for the information.i missed your first post i think, perhaps you sent it while i was busy with mine. i see it just now. right, the 1st and 12nd months are confusing. I have a dagger which is dated 1700-01 instead of 1699-1700 . I would like very much to be able to say I have something from the 17th century

.

ariel · 29th November 2005, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

ariel, thank you very much for the information.i missed your first post i think, perhaps you sent it while i was busy with mine. i see it just now. right, the 1st and 12nd months are confusing. I have a dagger which is dated 1700-01 instead of 1699-1700 . I would like very much to be able to say I have something from the 17th century

.

How very interesting: Japanese swords of 17th century (Shinto) are considered relatively new vs. really old stuff (Koto, before 1600).
I have a Kindjal dated 1181 H (about 1767 Gregorian) and it is the oldest Kindjal I've ever seen or heard about.
Why don't we, indeed, have older "Islamic" swords? What happened to them? Why such a difference vs. Japanese?

erlikhan · 28th November 2005, 07:52 PM

hi. I think Islamic calendar is not calculated so,we can't just add 622 to find the matching date in the other calendar. it differs around 11 days every year compared to Gregorian. otherwise it would be very easy

The discussed number on the sword has two tips going upward, if it was number 3, it should have three tips. it is carved quite crudely, thats why you think it is a "3" I guess. if it is 1215, it means something like 1799 or 1800 for sure. in 1890s-1900s nobody was making yataghans anymore. Which picture do you mean by "the second"? The second one containing silver inlaid figures, from up to down? Yes some of them are oriental decorations but, you think none of them are Arabic letters?
regards

Tim Simmons · 28th November 2005, 08:32 PM

Hello erilkhan, how very handsome and such lovely crisp silver work. I no nothing about the Islamic calendar but the formal borders of the cartouches and there contents have a strong European influence and the profusion of decoration makes me think of the latter part of the 19th cent. Where in the Islamic world do you think it comes from? How do you know the handle is walrus ivory? Tim

Jens Nordlunde · 28th November 2005, 09:46 PM

In one of my books I have found a way to make the calculation.
1221 AH. 1221*0.97+622 = 1806.
Hope it helps.

erlikhan · 28th November 2005, 10:28 PM

Jens, I know 1293 means 1877 as a certain date from the history, and went back accordingly to find something like 1799-1800 but I am not so sure after your correction. I hope there is somebody to say it exactly. Tim, it is from today's Turkey or its surrounding countries of former Ottoman empire,I guess Balkans if not Turkey. But the silver inlaid figures look Central Turkey,as I have seen several samples with the same style offered by local dealers from that region. They can be original to the blade or later, that I dont know, but I dont think they are after the 3rd quarter of 19 th c. I would like to know the translation of the inscriptions to have more accurate info. The hilt must be walrus, as the cracked-loking known structure of the walrus tooth core is seen in the inner parts.
regards

ariel · 28th November 2005, 11:19 PM

In addition to the site I've mentioned above, here is another one to convert Islamic/Gregorian dates with optimal precision:
http://www.rabiah.com/convert/convert.php3
Remember that checking both Month 1 and Month 12 is important: the dates within the same year of one calendar may fall into different years in another.
I added those to my Favourites and have been using them extensively: very easy.

Rivkin · 2nd December 2005, 04:15 PM

Well, first of all, until recently I did believe that I had quite a collection of damascus kindjals. Now I think that I don't, but some of them have nice etchings

. I can not be sure that kindjals I have seen were of XVI century; I've seen one dated sword that part of the signature in georgian, but again - could be some later fake, even through I doubt it. Since at the time I could not read arabic dates, I also have to take the owner's word concerning translation.

The stuff I've seen was very simple, no silver/niello, black horn, nicely laminated blades. The problem is that this all happened so many years ago and way before I started to research those things. I am trying to shake the ppls for pictures, but damn they lazy.

P.S. I have some sad news about "khevsurian" swords, like the set that Yannis had etc. There is a master that makes georgian "old" swords, he signs his works with one of the following: kharanauli in old georgian (that the sucker's name), or cross on top of a pyramid.

P.P.S. How do you look at the idea of furthering our contacts with some of the museums ? There is also at least a dozen collectors I heard of, but never got in touch with.

ariel · 2nd December 2005, 04:44 PM

Astvatsaturyan wrote that the oldest known Shahka was dated 1713. I am wondering whether the would be Kindjals older than that date: difficult to accept that long bladed, purely fighting, weapons vanished over the years but the shorter, day-to-day, almost utility weapons like Kindjals remained spared.
As you see, I still try to keep my claim for the "oldest Kindjal in the world" alive

Rivkin · 2nd December 2005, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Astvatsaturyan wrote that the oldest known Shahka was dated 1713. I am wondering whether the would be Kindjals older than that date: difficult to accept that long bladed, purely fighting, weapons vanished over the years but the shorter, day-to-day, almost utility weapons like Kindjals remained spared.
As you see, I still try to keep my claim for the "oldest Kindjal in the world" alive

Caucasian weapons of 3000bc - 500 ad are rather well researched and described... I would guess there is a big problem with the fact that no literature available on the missing 500-1700ad, with Astvatsaturjan being essentially "caucasian weapons of XVIII-XIX century" book.

The problem with kindjals is that even 1000bc types are somewhat reminiscient of modern kindjals, and really there is not a lot of ways for one to make a short dagger. I would guess there should be a large greay area, where one can not say whether the dagger in question is archaic or "modern type" kindjal.

Can we see your kindjal, pretty please ?

ariel · 2nd December 2005, 09:47 PM

Will do

Yannis · 3rd December 2005, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

I have some sad news about "khevsurian" swords, like the set that Yannis had etc. There is a master that makes georgian "old" swords, he signs his works with one of the following: kharanauli in old georgian (that the sucker's name), or cross on top of a pyramid.

Rivkin, unfortunately for me, your news are already old. I have write about it in this forum, following my own swap post, few months ago. I hope I knew it earlier. Now me and a friend of mine we have already 3 of his swords! I believe it was Ham the first person who noticed it.

Personally I don’t believe that it is the bladesmith’s fault. He signs his work, didn’t he? It is the dealers who I blame, because they sold them as antiques.

The great frustration about khevsur swords is that after this discovery we see with suspicion all of them. It is not fair. As you can see in the photos of the museum and in antique photos there are antique swords. In the future I am going to post in a new thread what I mean.

ariel · 3rd December 2005, 06:13 PM

Here is my Kindjal as promised. Couldn't photograph the markings but you have to believe me: 1181H. The leather is new, the rest is original and in a very good shape. I do not want to polish the blade for fear of removing the markings.

Rivkin · 3rd December 2005, 07:19 PM

Yannis: Yes, I know... There are still a few legitimate sellers who sell real khevsur swords.

Ariel: VVery nice. What is your opinion about the kindjal's origins ?

ariel · 5th December 2005, 06:00 PM

I have been thinking about the origin myself...
The best would be to read the armourer's mark on the blade and I shall try to find a translator ( afraid, there are very few Chechens around here, though...)
The form might be of help:
Circassian kinjals wer smaller and narrow-er ( except for Shapsughs', but those were shorter). Daghestani/Chechen kindjals had better silverwork, but that was after Shamil; The Great Leader favoured simple iron. The ornament has nothing to do with the traditional Avar/Chechen/Daghestani motives: too simple .
I would stick my neck out and say: Georgian. They had blades of any kind, and 3-rivet handles. Flimsy evidence, to put it mildly, but I can't do better than that. Why couldn't the bugger sign his name on the scabbard??
What do you think?

27th November 2005, 11:07 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	New yataghan Hi.I acquired this yataghan recently. silver scabbard, walrus hilt and both sides silver inlay. length 83 cm. Has 1215 ( 1799) as date. can anybody translate the Arabic inscriptions please? regards Attached Images

3rd December 2005, 06:13 PM	#18
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here is my Kindjal as promised. Couldn't photograph the markings but you have to believe me: 1181H. The leather is new, the rest is original and in a very good shape. I do not want to polish the blade for fear of removing the markings. Attached Images

28th November 2005, 04:32 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,200	Impressive. The silver work is in great shape.

28th November 2005, 07:47 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Dom, You need to use conversion calendar: Islamic year is lunar! Please check this: http://www.oriold.unizh.ch/static/hegira.html 1215 H= 1800 Gregorian 1315 H = 1897 Gregorian Lovely yataghan: somehow reminds me of Greek/Balkan origin: handle, dolphin, silverwork...

28th November 2005, 11:53 PM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	ariel, thank you very much for the information.i missed your first post i think, perhaps you sent it while i was busy with mine. i see it just now. right, the 1st and 12nd months are confusing. I have a dagger which is dated 1700-01 instead of 1699-1700 . I would like very much to be able to say I have something from the 17th century .

28th November 2005, 07:52 PM	#8
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	hi. I think Islamic calendar is not calculated so,we can't just add 622 to find the matching date in the other calendar. it differs around 11 days every year compared to Gregorian. otherwise it would be very easy The discussed number on the sword has two tips going upward, if it was number 3, it should have three tips. it is carved quite crudely, thats why you think it is a "3" I guess. if it is 1215, it means something like 1799 or 1800 for sure. in 1890s-1900s nobody was making yataghans anymore. Which picture do you mean by "the second"? The second one containing silver inlaid figures, from up to down? Yes some of them are oriental decorations but, you think none of them are Arabic letters? regards

28th November 2005, 08:32 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,781	Hello erilkhan, how very handsome and such lovely crisp silver work. I no nothing about the Islamic calendar but the formal borders of the cartouches and there contents have a strong European influence and the profusion of decoration makes me think of the latter part of the 19th cent. Where in the Islamic world do you think it comes from? How do you know the handle is walrus ivory? Tim

28th November 2005, 09:46 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	In one of my books I have found a way to make the calculation. 1221 AH. 1221*0.97+622 = 1806. Hope it helps.

28th November 2005, 10:28 PM	#11
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Jens, I know 1293 means 1877 as a certain date from the history, and went back accordingly to find something like 1799-1800 but I am not so sure after your correction. I hope there is somebody to say it exactly. Tim, it is from today's Turkey or its surrounding countries of former Ottoman empire,I guess Balkans if not Turkey. But the silver inlaid figures look Central Turkey,as I have seen several samples with the same style offered by local dealers from that region. They can be original to the blade or later, that I dont know, but I dont think they are after the 3rd quarter of 19 th c. I would like to know the translation of the inscriptions to have more accurate info. The hilt must be walrus, as the cracked-loking known structure of the walrus tooth core is seen in the inner parts. regards

28th November 2005, 11:19 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In addition to the site I've mentioned above, here is another one to convert Islamic/Gregorian dates with optimal precision: http://www.rabiah.com/convert/convert.php3 Remember that checking both Month 1 and Month 12 is important: the dates within the same year of one calendar may fall into different years in another. I added those to my Favourites and have been using them extensively: very easy.

2nd December 2005, 04:15 PM	#13
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, first of all, until recently I did believe that I had quite a collection of damascus kindjals. Now I think that I don't, but some of them have nice etchings . I can not be sure that kindjals I have seen were of XVI century; I've seen one dated sword that part of the signature in georgian, but again - could be some later fake, even through I doubt it. Since at the time I could not read arabic dates, I also have to take the owner's word concerning translation. The stuff I've seen was very simple, no silver/niello, black horn, nicely laminated blades. The problem is that this all happened so many years ago and way before I started to research those things. I am trying to shake the ppls for pictures, but damn they lazy. P.S. I have some sad news about "khevsurian" swords, like the set that Yannis had etc. There is a master that makes georgian "old" swords, he signs his works with one of the following: kharanauli in old georgian (that the sucker's name), or cross on top of a pyramid. P.P.S. How do you look at the idea of furthering our contacts with some of the museums ? There is also at least a dozen collectors I heard of, but never got in touch with.

2nd December 2005, 04:44 PM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Astvatsaturyan wrote that the oldest known Shahka was dated 1713. I am wondering whether the would be Kindjals older than that date: difficult to accept that long bladed, purely fighting, weapons vanished over the years but the shorter, day-to-day, almost utility weapons like Kindjals remained spared. As you see, I still try to keep my claim for the "oldest Kindjal in the world" alive

2nd December 2005, 09:47 PM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Will do

3rd December 2005, 07:19 PM	#19
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Yannis: Yes, I know... There are still a few legitimate sellers who sell real khevsur swords. Ariel: VVery nice. What is your opinion about the kindjal's origins ?

5th December 2005, 06:00 PM	#20
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have been thinking about the origin myself... The best would be to read the armourer's mark on the blade and I shall try to find a translator ( afraid, there are very few Chechens around here, though...) The form might be of help: Circassian kinjals wer smaller and narrow-er ( except for Shapsughs', but those were shorter). Daghestani/Chechen kindjals had better silverwork, but that was after Shamil; The Great Leader favoured simple iron. The ornament has nothing to do with the traditional Avar/Chechen/Daghestani motives: too simple . I would stick my neck out and say: Georgian. They had blades of any kind, and 3-rivet handles. Flimsy evidence, to put it mildly, but I can't do better than that. Why couldn't the bugger sign his name on the scabbard?? What do you think?