Rapier for coments

[fernando]

Would you agree this is a XVII century "Milanese fencing school" rapier?
The estoc blade has a diamond cross section and measures 107 centimetres (over 42") not counting the ricasso; with a width at forte of about 13 mm (1/2") and a thickness of 7 mm ( less than 5/16").
Single deep fuller in 1/5 of its length and point of balance 5 cms (2") from the guard.
Do i see a Pappenheimer touch in the guard little basket ... married with a swept hilt (lace) concept ?
But what do i know ?
I am not even at home to check on Norman's, to try and classify the pommel; a sturdy one, by the way!

Any coments on tis piece, Gentlemen?

.

[Matchlock]

Hi 'Nando,

My first thought on this interesting piece was that it might be a Pappenheimer rapier of ca. 1625-30, the pommel though obviously in excavated condition and of English provenance. My expert friend Ottmar has corrected me this afternoon; while confirming my opinion that the pommel is an inapt English find, he says the rest is a civilian rapier of ca. 1640, probably German, and the wire binding is a modern replacement.

Best,
Michael

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

I have seen a few similar spanish blades c 1650, but without the lasso guard and with straight quillons. The grip is obviously "new" (18th C?) .

A serviced heirloom? A reworked, "updated", ceremonial sword?

Italians did have a tendency to curve _both_ quillons toward the point.

Best

M

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi 'Nando,

My first thought on this interesting piece was that it might be a Pappenheimer rapier of ca. 1625-30, the pommel obviously in excavated condition and of English provenance. My expert friend Ottmar has corrected me this afternoon; while confirming the that the pommel is an inapt English find, he says the rest is a civilian rapier of ca. 1640, probably German, and the wire binding is a modern replacement.

Best,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

I am very much with Michael as my first impressions were in accord with his, as everything I could find in Norman directed toward English origin for this elongated globular pommel. Obviously the pierced shells directed toward a pappenheimer as well. What was distracting me was that as Celtan has noted, the blade resembles rapier blades which were in use mid 17th and into the early 18th century by Spain. It has seemed to me, by the markings and inscriptions, that these were likely produced in Solingen for export.

The wire wrap is indeed replacement, but cannot say from photos exactly how old. I believe that Michael's very well informed friend is quite on target in the German assessment and period, and the sword well illustrates the very composite nature often seen in rapiers as they were reworked to maintain servicability and often changing fashions.

I think that the well established connections between Germany and England in the time period noted may account for the variation in components, as this was during the time when the contingent of Solingen swordsmiths went to England with the establishment of the Hounslow manufacturing center. This is not to suggest this is a Hounslow rapier, simply that a well established contact was in place between the two countries with regard to these commercial matters.


All best regards,
Jim

[cornelistromp]

Hi Fernando,

very nice rapier, this pommel is used frequently in England in the early 17thC but in my opinion and in this case it belongs to this rapier and the rapier is indeed German, ..............so is the pommel.
For comparison see a rapier in my collection signed by Clemens Meigen with the same type of pommel and the same hexagonal bulbs in the ring-guard and a similar fluted quillon block as the pommel .

best regards,

[fernando]

Thank you all, Gentlemen.
It is no surprise that the wire wrap may not be the original one, as so often happens. I don't think however that it is a modern work, but has probably taken place during its service life. It is a perfect job, with a rather intrincate wiring and embelished with two little turk heads.
Concerning the pommel; reading Norman and checking on type #36, mentions are made on this fluted variation to appear in Brithish illustrations. But checking on plates #49 and #51, we observe these types mounted on swept hilt swords of North European origin. Also in the Wallace Collection we find these pommels, for instance A 627 and A 630. Reading the respective notes, we notice that, the first is mounted on a Milanese swept hilt sword and the second also on a Italian example.
We know that the rigour of these things deserves a pinch of salt. It might be that, for experts, this pommel may look inapt in this sword, but i happen to like it and am glad that it is a period item, nobody stating the contrary ... plus its self speaking aged texture.
Oh, i see that, while i build this response, Cornelistromp has posted his opinion on this piece.
Let me digest what he has to say about it.

[Matchlock]

Hi 'Nando,

The pommel obviously is in excavated condition as compared to the rest of the iron parts.

Best,
Michl