Talismanic or just randomly placed copper dots

kino · 1st September 2008, 08:32 PM

I noticed that this Kris has copper dots inset on the top part of the blade, the dots are on both sides of the sword.

Do you Forumites think that these were just place randomly or do they have any talismanic values. Any ideas

Atlantia · 1st September 2008, 09:03 PM

Interesting blade. Are they buddhists? Do the star designs represent the eightfold path?

David · 1st September 2008, 10:03 PM

I would say that given the other talismanic signs that there is probably similar purpose behind the copper dots.
The number 8 certainly does seem to have some significance here, but i doubt it has a Buddhist connection. However, i couldn't begin to guess at it's actual meaning. Very interesting blade.

Queequeg · 1st September 2008, 10:22 PM

I read once, in a story which took place in the Philippines, that warriors would drill holes into their kamplians and fill them with brass for every enemy they killed with that blade.

Truth?

Battara · 2nd September 2008, 05:44 AM

Nice piece, especially love the talismans on the blade. Dots - yes purposeful, but meaning - ?

Holes for slain - not enough evidence one way or the other.

Also looks Maguindanao, and I love the unusual baka-baka clamp of silver.

kai · 2nd September 2008, 09:16 AM

Hello Albert,

Congrats, that's a very nice piece again!

Quote:

Do you Forumites think that these were just place randomly or do they have any talismanic values.

I believe that hardly anything in any SE Asian culture can be legimately called "random" in a western sense: Just about anything has a meaning to begin with (or, more rarely, gets one assigned/changed by its owner) - with weapons usually in the realm of what we refer to as talismanic. The only exception I can think of may be repairs (i.e. dots added later to repair a hairline crack and even then any non-iron metal would also get talimanic properties assigned to it) - but your dots seem to be spaced too regularly to begin with. Also, any pure repair of a sandwich construction would only need to be done to the layer actually affected - not going through all 3 layers!

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 2nd September 2008, 09:31 AM

I agree with Kai that the dots are talismanic. I wonder what the meaning could be?

I've seen them before on kris. My own Maguindanao kris whose avatar I use has 4 silver dots, but have no idea why other than talismanic. Must be something in adat or Muslim folklore......

VVV · 2nd September 2008, 10:53 AM

Interesting piece, congratulations!
I also agree that they must have some meaning, even if we probably never really will know what.
Here are two suggestions that maybe(!) could be the case:

- Magic; to counter an enemy who has powers not to be hurt by steel by adding another metal in the blade.
- Symbolic leverage; by including 4 higher powers in the blade they will assist the owner in the fight. I don't know which 4 powers but the
most common ones are: the 4 archangels, the 4 rulers of the corners of the earth, the 4 elements, the 4 friends of the Prophet etc.

Just ideas, but based on ethnographic information collected in the same cultural area.

Michael

Atlantia · 2nd September 2008, 03:00 PM

Lovely sword by the way Kino,
Are there definately only the four dots? No others further down the blade?

kino · 3rd September 2008, 03:10 AM

A lot of good theories. Thanks.

Atlantia, No not Buddhist, the Moro's are Muslims. There are only four copper dots on each side of the blade.

Battara- Upon closer inspection the clamp seems to be made of copper that was covered in silver. I have seen suassa over silver, this is my first encounter with silver over copper.

Kai- No hairline crack inline with the dots. Although there is evidence of a repair to the tang.

VVV- I can't invalidate your theory, anything is possible.

Does the dots have anything to do with the tang repair? Cato said that the Jin is released if the blade is separated from the ganya. I wonder if the dots were placed on the blade prior to doing the repair, to prevent the Jin from escaping.
Which came first the tang repair or the copper dots???

1st September 2008, 08:32 PM	#1
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	Talismanic or just randomly placed copper dots I noticed that this Kris has copper dots inset on the top part of the blade, the dots are on both sides of the sword. Do you Forumites think that these were just place randomly or do they have any talismanic values. Any ideas Attached Images

3rd September 2008, 03:10 AM	#10
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	A lot of good theories. Thanks. Atlantia, No not Buddhist, the Moro's are Muslims. There are only four copper dots on each side of the blade. Battara- Upon closer inspection the clamp seems to be made of copper that was covered in silver. I have seen suassa over silver, this is my first encounter with silver over copper. Kai- No hairline crack inline with the dots. Although there is evidence of a repair to the tang. VVV- I can't invalidate your theory, anything is possible. Does the dots have anything to do with the tang repair? Cato said that the Jin is released if the blade is separated from the ganya. I wonder if the dots were placed on the blade prior to doing the repair, to prevent the Jin from escaping. Which came first the tang repair or the copper dots??? Attached Images

1st September 2008, 09:03 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Interesting blade. Are they buddhists? Do the star designs represent the eightfold path?

1st September 2008, 10:03 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	I would say that given the other talismanic signs that there is probably similar purpose behind the copper dots. The number 8 certainly does seem to have some significance here, but i doubt it has a Buddhist connection. However, i couldn't begin to guess at it's actual meaning. Very interesting blade.

1st September 2008, 10:22 PM	#4
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	I read once, in a story which took place in the Philippines, that warriors would drill holes into their kamplians and fill them with brass for every enemy they killed with that blade. Truth?

2nd September 2008, 05:44 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Nice piece, especially love the talismans on the blade. Dots - yes purposeful, but meaning - ? Holes for slain - not enough evidence one way or the other. Also looks Maguindanao, and I love the unusual baka-baka clamp of silver.

2nd September 2008, 09:31 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I agree with Kai that the dots are talismanic. I wonder what the meaning could be? I've seen them before on kris. My own Maguindanao kris whose avatar I use has 4 silver dots, but have no idea why other than talismanic. Must be something in adat or Muslim folklore......

2nd September 2008, 10:53 AM	#8
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Interesting piece, congratulations! I also agree that they must have some meaning, even if we probably never really will know what. Here are two suggestions that maybe(!) could be the case: - Magic; to counter an enemy who has powers not to be hurt by steel by adding another metal in the blade. - Symbolic leverage; by including 4 higher powers in the blade they will assist the owner in the fight. I don't know which 4 powers but the most common ones are: the 4 archangels, the 4 rulers of the corners of the earth, the 4 elements, the 4 friends of the Prophet etc. Just ideas, but based on ethnographic information collected in the same cultural area. Michael

2nd September 2008, 03:00 PM	#9
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Lovely sword by the way Kino, Are there definately only the four dots? No others further down the blade?