Templar Sword?

[Cesare]

Salve a tutti
Inizio con la spada che avete già visto.

Provenienza: Nord Italia

Periodo: seconda metà del 1200
(Sono quasi d’accordo con Michael)

Le sue caratteristiche sono
- Peso : 1290 g
- Lunghezza totale 1007 mm
- Punto di bilanciamento 190 mm dalla guardia
- Centro di percussione 560 mm dalla guardia

Lama
Doppio filo e sguscio centrale. Punta arrotondata
- Lunghezza 869 mm
- Larghezza max. 52 mm approx.
- Lughezza sguscio 720 mm approx.
- Larghezza sguscio 20 mm approx.

Fornimenti
- Impugnatura 81 mm
- Quillon
Altezza 148.5 mm
Larghezza
o Al centro 11.2 mm
o Alle estremità 18 ± 1 mm
Spessore
o al centro 21 mm
o Alle estremità 18 ± 1mm
- Pommel
A forma ovoidale.
o Larghezza 50.5 mm
o Altezza 45.8 mm
o Spessore 37.6 mm

Sul pomo c’è una croce a braccia uguali, in agemina d’argento.
Sono riuscito a ricostruirne la forma sula base delle micro tracce di argento ancora chimicamente rilevabili.
Sembra essere una croce templare.

Sulla lama è presente la firma del costruttore: Tre linee parallele ripetute due volte.
Finora non ho riscontri sul costruttore. Pertanto chiedo aiuto agli amici del forum.

Grazie a tutti
Cesare

Hello
with the sword that you've already seen.
Location: Northern Italy
Period: the second half of 1200
(I almost agree with Michael)

Its characteristics are
- Weight: 1290 g
- Overall length 1007 mm
- balance point 190 mm from the qullon
- Center of percussion 560 mm from the quillon

Blade
Double edge and central fuller. Rounded tip
- Length 869 mm
- Max width 52 mm approx.
- Fuller Total length 720 mm approx
- Fuller Width 20 mm approx.

Hilt
- Grip 81 mm

- Quillon
Height 148.5 mm
Width at the center 11.2 mm
Width at the ends 18 ± 1 mm

- Pommel
In ovoid form.
Width 50.5 mm or
Height 45.8 mm
thickness 37.6 mm

On both side of the pommel is a cross with equal arms, inlaid in silver.
I was able to reconstruct the shape on the basis of micro traces of silver still chemically detectable.
It seems to be a Templar cross. (see photo)

On the blade is the constructor signature: Three parallel lines repeated twice.
I have not identified the manufacturer. A little help from friends of the forum?

Thanks all.

Cesare

[Matchlock]

My expert friend on early edged weapons defined this sword as 'ca. 1300' on the grounds that its rounded pommel is the most recent dating criterion; if it were not for the pommel it could well be second half 13th c.

More soon.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Cesare,

I must say your posts start becoming a true enrichment of those forum members interested in Middle Ages weapons!

Please show us more museum items, also early firearms or detached locks as I requested yesterday.

Best,
Michael

[Atlantia]

Beautiful sword. I have one question though, why specifically Templar and not simply a later Crusades knightly sword? I always think of Christian knights adorned with 'holy' symbols etc.
I know the 'maltese cross', knights of St John, Templar connection etc, but was this symbol synonymous with the Templars only at that time?

[Matchlock]

Hi Gene,

The very same questions jumped to my mind as well. I hope we'll learn more about them soon.

Best,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Cesare, I would like to join the others in welcoming you here, and really look forward to the weapons you are sharing with us here, especially with the example at hand to begin with. Excellent photos, and superb description of a remarkable weapon!!

I would join with Gene and Michael in the caveat in applying the term 'Templar' as yet, as this was often collectively used in describing any of the number of monastic military orders of that time, and the cross was widely used on swords as a protective device. It seems that earlier it was most typically used on the scabbard, but of course may have been used on either.
The most distinguishing factors at this point are obviously the provenance (if this is among the excavated weapons you have noted) and as Michael has pointed out, the shape of the pommel. No doubt we will be consulting the Oakeshott references to clarify the classification.

The treble transverse lines are of course of key interest, and may lend more clues to classification.

At this point, a knightly sword c.1300 with possible monastic order association, and detail pending.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... why specifically Templar and not simply a later Crusades knightly sword? ...

The style of the cross, maybe, Gene !
Weren't Templar crosses different than Christian ones?

[mrwizard]

The Teutonic Knights also used a very similar cross
at that time (black instead of red) AND they had with the "Deutschordensballei An der Etsch und im Gebirge" a province nearby http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_der_Etsch

Best Regards

Thilo

[Matchlock]

I'm pretty much on your side, 'Nando,

The internet does not seem to be quite helpful, either. Illustrated there is a great variety of so-called Templars' crosses, some of which I would call Maltese and others just Medieval cosses pattées ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

This seemingly is gaining suspension!

Best,
Michael

[Cesare]

Ciao a tutti
Sono felice che il mio primo thread susciti così tanto interesse.
Cercherò di rispondere alle vostre domande.

L'ipotesi che la spada appartenesse ad un cavaliere templare sarebbe supportata dalla storia del paese.
Documenti storici confermano che alla fine del 1200 esistesse una chiesa denominata Santa Maria al Tempio, quindi, alla fine del 1200 nel paese di Legnago esisteva certamente una comunità di cavalieri templari.
Naturalmente, questa testimonianza storica mi consente di datare l'arma alla fine del 1200 (seconda metà del secolo)

Per "Matchlock" Michael:
Si, la spada potrebbe essere stata fatta nei primi del 1300
Mi dispiace, ma le più antiche armi da fuoco del museo risalgono al 1800 e sono collegate con le guerre di indipendenza italiane

A presto
Cesare


Hello everyone
I am happy that my first thread arouse so much interest.
I will try to answer your questions.

The hypothesis that the sword belonged to a Knight Templar would be backed by the country's history.
Historical documents confirm that at the end of 1200 there was a church called Santa Maria in the Temple, and then at the end of 1200 in the village of Legnago certainly existed a community of Knights Templar.
Of course, this historical evidence allows me to date the weapon at the end of 1200 (second half of the century)

For "Matchlock" Michael:
Yes, the sword may have been made in early 1300
I'm sorry, but the oldest firearms in the museum date back to 1800 and are connected with the wars of Italian independence

See you soon

Cesare

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Cesare

For "Matchlock" Michael:
Yes, the sword may have been made in early 1300
I'm sorry, but the oldest firearms in the museum date back to 1800 and are connected with the wars of Italian independence

See you soon

Cesare

OK then, I'll try and keep doing my best on edged weapons with a little help from my expert friend.

Best regards to Italy,
Michael


.

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting possibilities here. In looking at those markings on this blade, they correspond to similar found on the Frankish Ingelrii swords of c.10th c. and contemporary with the Ulfberht blades. While obviously the blade profile and the sword itself is much later, it is known that the Ingelrii blades remained in use longer than those marked Ulfberht, perhaps as late as 12th century. Whatever the case, markings of course as we know continued long after the original maker or context had ceased.

The cross, to me seems very much like the simple Greek cross, and the practice of placing crosses on swords and thier scabbards was also known in the 9th and 10th c.

[Cesare]

Ciao a tutti
Voglio ringraziare Jim, David, Fernando, Michael, e tutt gli altri amici che hanno contribuito al thread.

Devo dire che condivido le vostre conclusioni.
La spada è quanto meno interessante sotto molti punti di vista.
Non possiamo affermare con sicurezza che è la spada dei templari o dei cavalieri di San Giovanni.
Comunque è una magnifica spada. Impugnarla è un vero piacere.
Io aggiungo che molto probabilmente la spada è un remake di una più antica.
L'impugnatura è piccola, sproporzionata col resto della spada. La tipologia della lama, come giustamente sottolinea John, è più antica rispetto al fornimento . Del resto le lame costavano moltissimo, quindi non meravigliamoci se venivano riciclate.
Tempo fa ho visionato uno spadino con lama a frantopino. della fine del 1600 ÷ inizio 1700.
La lama era stata ricavata modificando una firmata da un noto spadaio di Toledo e datata 1525.

Presto vi proporrò nuove e interessanti armi. La collezione del museo è piuttosto corposa.

A presto
Cesare

Hello everyone
I want to thank Jim, David, Fernando, Michael, and all other friends who have contributed to the thread.

I must say that I agree with your conclusions.
The sword is at least interesting from many points of view.
We can not say with certainty that it is the sword of the Templars or the Knights of St. John.
However, it is a magnificent sword. Challenge it is a real pleasure.
I would add that the sword is most likely a remake of an older one.
The grip is small and disproportionate to the rest of the sword. The type of blade, as John rightly points out, is older than the hilt. Moreover, the blade is very expensive, so do not be surprised if they were recycled.

Some time ago I reviewed a small sword with frantopino blade dated from late 1600 to early 1700.
The blade was derived by changing one, signed by a famous swordsmith of Toledo and dated 1525 !

Soon I will propose new and interesting weapons. The museum's collection is quite substantial.

See you soon
Cesare

[Matchlock]

We sure are all eyes to see more of the museum's treasures, Cesare!

Best,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

I agree Cesare, we look forward to more of these amazing treasures. Who knows how many mysteries lie hidden in them, very much like the mystery of those blade markings on this one!

While the answer to the markings on this blade defy our attention, perhaps new mysteries will have more results in our discussions.

A note to Dmitry, thank you for your notes from the Boccia & Coelho reference! I had meant to include that but got lost in my ramblings (as usual .

All best regards,
Jim

[Lee]

First, my apologies for how long it has taken me to reply to this thread. This is an amazingly nice sword and I genuinely appreciate your sharing it with us.

I apologize for the poor technical quality of the photograph, but this is from the blade of a Viking Age sword of mid-tenth century date:



Two groups of three lines each on the forte, perpendicular to the length executed as iron inlays in a pattern welded blade (Oakeshott Records X.4). I obviously do not know the meaning of the pattern, but here is an earlier iteration of it.

At first glance the blade really looked Oakeshott X / Geibig 5 to me, but the more I look at it I have come to believe the best fit is an Oakeshott XII. Mr. Oakeshott was revising his dates earlier towards the end of his life and he places a number of these blades with silver inlays into the 11th century, so my personal suspicion is that this is from the eleventh through first half of the twelfth century (1000-1150). As noted above, a brazil nut form 'moving' to round. Peek at the pommel of JPO2242 from Paris (Swords of the Viking Age pp 128-130) and the blade of NM1174:1 from Helsinki (SVA pp 138-139).

[terry1956]

Hi Lee. Pattern is just that a pattern showing on the blade produced from the action of welding the metal together. strips of metal maybe 5 or 6 strips sometimes more each strip of metal having various degrees of carbon .would be heated and hammered together time and time again to produce the blade. At any time during the process if the metal gets to hot or cold the whole process was wreaked and started again using new metal.
what the pattern shows on the blade is the joining lines of these metal strips.
hope that helps explain things a little better. michael