Arabian sword, new or old? opinions please

eftihis · 4th April 2005, 10:31 AM

Dear friends,
I have this sword for some time, i believe is an arabian saif, it has silver scabbard with typical handmade engravings but also stamped parts, and a blade that while does not look particulary old, does not look comletely new either. Towards the end of the blade the blade line is not straight like someone has sharpened many times the edge in this point. In the place the blade meets the hilt there are remains of dirt like the sword has been cleaned and polished. There is also a number in a part of the scabbard that i guess it was used for assempling the parts.
I have seen recent tourist pieces and they do not have this quality and not this blade. Could this been an old tourist piece?
ANy help or suggestions about its age?
Many thanks!

Tim Simmons · 4th April 2005, 10:55 AM

Hi , I do not think the stampings are modern machine made,I must go I should be working.Tim

derek · 4th April 2005, 02:41 PM

Hi Tim,

Definitely some new elements. I've seen nearly identical scabbards made recently in Iran, and very similar from Yemen as well. The The guard looks old to me. The blade I don't know. It is sharp? It looks like an old trade blade, but it's really bright.

BTW, I knew an antique dealer in the UAE that regularly got a lot of "refurbished" swords from Iran. Often the blade would be old and there were old parts mixed in with repairs. The work was really good, but it was new. I still have some pics archived on CD somewhere.....

-d

tom hyle · 4th April 2005, 06:22 PM

The white adhesive is not something I've seen on old pieces, though European cutlers' pitch is often a pale cream colour. The grips don't seem old to me, and I suspect this sword has had a fairly recent rehilting/refurbishing. The blade looks like an old one that has been cleaned by recent soft-buffing (notice the pits; notice also that it has been cleaned under the lagnets, which is nearly impossible while the sword is assembled.). I have come to doubt the usual diagnosis of these multifullered thinnish blades as European, especially when the grooves run off the base of the blade; I think it's an Islamic blade; it closely resembles N African blades I've seen. The only part of the scabbard that stands out as a stamping, rather than hand-embossed and graven is the narrow reinforcing band you show a close-up of. It seems to be a modern repair on an old sheath. There is another that looks similar (2 such bands total), but there's no close-up of it. I can't see the tang-band well enough to tell if it is stamped or hand-decorated. The guard appears to be old. I'm utterly baffled as to any idea of this as a tourist sword. My guess concerning the wave near the tip is that it is not so much the result of longterm repeated sharpening, but a single incident of sharpening out a damage.

eftihis · 4th April 2005, 07:45 PM

Dear friends,
Thanks for your comments. I attach some more photos!
I think the parts near the opening of the scabbard (i attach photos) are also stamped, arent they?

M.carter · 4th April 2005, 09:38 PM

Hello Eftihis,

Your sword seems almost identical to mine! Although mine seems to be fairly new (the scabbard had this silver blackness (I really dont know what its called, like soot, it went away after rubbing it with some Silvo)), the blade on your sword seems to have seen sharpening, and maybe even use (why not?, beduoins of arabia still used them up to the early 20th century, royal bodyguards of the Al-Saud's carry them everywere they go!). I must say the hilt on yours looks better than mine (i dont like the look of rivets).

I wouldnt call these swords as tourist items (besides, whats in Saudi Arabia for tourism anyway?!

). The low-quality syrian versions of these are certainly tourist items (this is not saying Syrian work is junk, some Syrian peices ive seen I think are the best blades the middle east can offer these days), you find them all over the middle east, but these Saudi swords are quite rare, even in the middle east for three things: 1. Few are made, 2. They are hard to trade and transport (swords are illegal in most ME countries), 3. They can be quite expensive, especially if you get one with pure gold fittings and ivory hilt slabs.

Tim Simmons · 4th April 2005, 10:04 PM

Lawrence of Arabia,it could well be 1920s+.The black stuff is called oxidisation and if left will come back.The blackening can be created easily with a solution of warm water and rock sulpher and will make nearly any metal look old, likewise rust can also be advanced but thats another story.Tim

tom hyle · 5th April 2005, 12:07 AM

M Carter, is there white adhesive on yours? Sure looks the same.
Saudi Arabia is probably the most betouristed country on Earth, certainly one of them, due to the hadj.

Battara · 5th April 2005, 03:05 AM

I agree. The hilt and scabbard look old. The scabbard and metal on the hilt are silver - sunshine cloth from a jewelery store can take the tarnish off. The hilt also looks like bone. The blade - different story - not sure.

derek · 5th April 2005, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

M Carter, is there white adhesive on yours? Sure looks the same.
Saudi Arabia is probably the most betouristed country on Earth, certainly one of them, due to the hadj.

Good point, Tom! Carter is speaking from experience about exporting though, I'm sure. I found that things move in and out of Dubai without too much trouble, as long as you use courier or freight container (This may have changed recently). If you use Dubai Post its all over. They won't allow anything to leave, and to receive a blade took an act of God (almost, I worked for a guy who worked for Sheikh Mohammed and he dropped a few names at the PO for me). Saudi may be a different matter - Oman is for sure. ESPECIALLY if you are talking about indigenous antique blades. In Oman it is against the law to take old blades out of the country. They are prized over the beautiful work of the jambiya scabbards. The Iranians that I met smuggled swords out of their country by boat at night. The would ride along side a big freight ship crossing the Gulf and literally throw bundled swords to the crew from small boats in the dark. They risked serious trouble if caught. I heard the same about Iraq, but this was before Saddam ran for the spider hole.

Anyway, Carter. you say your blade is new? It looks like these two came from the same "source". Do you know any specifics about where yours came from?

-d

4th April 2005, 10:31 AM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Arabian sword, new or old? opinions please Dear friends, I have this sword for some time, i believe is an arabian saif, it has silver scabbard with typical handmade engravings but also stamped parts, and a blade that while does not look particulary old, does not look comletely new either. Towards the end of the blade the blade line is not straight like someone has sharpened many times the edge in this point. In the place the blade meets the hilt there are remains of dirt like the sword has been cleaned and polished. There is also a number in a part of the scabbard that i guess it was used for assempling the parts. I have seen recent tourist pieces and they do not have this quality and not this blade. Could this been an old tourist piece? ANy help or suggestions about its age? Many thanks! Attached Images

4th April 2005, 07:45 PM	#5
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	More photos Dear friends, Thanks for your comments. I attach some more photos! I think the parts near the opening of the scabbard (i attach photos) are also stamped, arent they? Attached Images

4th April 2005, 10:55 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hi , I do not think the stampings are modern machine made,I must go I should be working.Tim

4th April 2005, 02:41 PM	#3
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Hi Tim, Definitely some new elements. I've seen nearly identical scabbards made recently in Iran, and very similar from Yemen as well. The The guard looks old to me. The blade I don't know. It is sharp? It looks like an old trade blade, but it's really bright. BTW, I knew an antique dealer in the UAE that regularly got a lot of "refurbished" swords from Iran. Often the blade would be old and there were old parts mixed in with repairs. The work was really good, but it was new. I still have some pics archived on CD somewhere..... -d

4th April 2005, 06:22 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The white adhesive is not something I've seen on old pieces, though European cutlers' pitch is often a pale cream colour. The grips don't seem old to me, and I suspect this sword has had a fairly recent rehilting/refurbishing. The blade looks like an old one that has been cleaned by recent soft-buffing (notice the pits; notice also that it has been cleaned under the lagnets, which is nearly impossible while the sword is assembled.). I have come to doubt the usual diagnosis of these multifullered thinnish blades as European, especially when the grooves run off the base of the blade; I think it's an Islamic blade; it closely resembles N African blades I've seen. The only part of the scabbard that stands out as a stamping, rather than hand-embossed and graven is the narrow reinforcing band you show a close-up of. It seems to be a modern repair on an old sheath. There is another that looks similar (2 such bands total), but there's no close-up of it. I can't see the tang-band well enough to tell if it is stamped or hand-decorated. The guard appears to be old. I'm utterly baffled as to any idea of this as a tourist sword. My guess concerning the wave near the tip is that it is not so much the result of longterm repeated sharpening, but a single incident of sharpening out a damage.

4th April 2005, 09:38 PM	#6
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Hello Eftihis, Your sword seems almost identical to mine! Although mine seems to be fairly new (the scabbard had this silver blackness (I really dont know what its called, like soot, it went away after rubbing it with some Silvo)), the blade on your sword seems to have seen sharpening, and maybe even use (why not?, beduoins of arabia still used them up to the early 20th century, royal bodyguards of the Al-Saud's carry them everywere they go!). I must say the hilt on yours looks better than mine (i dont like the look of rivets). I wouldnt call these swords as tourist items (besides, whats in Saudi Arabia for tourism anyway?! ). The low-quality syrian versions of these are certainly tourist items (this is not saying Syrian work is junk, some Syrian peices ive seen I think are the best blades the middle east can offer these days), you find them all over the middle east, but these Saudi swords are quite rare, even in the middle east for three things: 1. Few are made, 2. They are hard to trade and transport (swords are illegal in most ME countries), 3. They can be quite expensive, especially if you get one with pure gold fittings and ivory hilt slabs.

4th April 2005, 10:04 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Lawrence of Arabia,it could well be 1920s+.The black stuff is called oxidisation and if left will come back.The blackening can be created easily with a solution of warm water and rock sulpher and will make nearly any metal look old, likewise rust can also be advanced but thats another story.Tim

5th April 2005, 12:07 AM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	M Carter, is there white adhesive on yours? Sure looks the same. Saudi Arabia is probably the most betouristed country on Earth, certainly one of them, due to the hadj.

5th April 2005, 03:05 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I agree. The hilt and scabbard look old. The scabbard and metal on the hilt are silver - sunshine cloth from a jewelery store can take the tarnish off. The hilt also looks like bone. The blade - different story - not sure.