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#1 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Halstenbek, Germany
Posts: 202
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Hello!
I am new in this forum and I hope I will be able to contibute something interesting for you. I am primarily interested in very early european firearms until end of 14th century but with a special focus on fire arms aorund 1400 AD. At the permanent exhibition of the Dithmarscher Landesmuseum, Meldorf, Schleswig-Holstein, Germany I have made some photos of small cannons. Unfortunately no description was available in the exhibition and a request to the museums remained unanswered. Unforturnately the photos are not so good and I missed to take the dimensions of the barrels. I guess the outer barrels had a lenght of approx. 100 to 110 cm, but I can not recall the approximate calibre. I guess the left and right barrels are dating to the 15th or 16th century. May someone can give a more prcise date? Last edited by Andi; 14th November 2012 at 08:25 AM. |
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#2 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Welcome to the forum, Andi
![]() I hope the members come around and give you some comments on these cannons; not Matchlock, as he will be absent for a while. My own knowledge is extremely limited but i will dare say that the cannons on the left and right are earlier than you are guessing; but don't take this too seriously ![]() As for the one in the center, the breech loader, i would risk the opinion that it misses part of the barrel, judging by its proportional dimensions. Let's hope other members chime in to correct my shots and offer a better judgement. |
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#3 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,885
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While I have entirely zero knowledge on medieval firearms and artillery I would like to join Fernando in welcoming you to the forum Andi. I only wish Michael (Matchlock) was here to join in, as he is in my opinion one of the foremost authorities worldwide on these topics. Despite my lack of knowledge on these, I think Fernando's observations are quite valid and I am inclined to agree. While he is quite modest he does have good working knowledge on many of these weapons.
The only resource I have on the subject is searching Michaels huge corpus of posts on these, which provides me with at least cursory understanding. The breechloader with what I presume to be the loading trough does seem to be missing the forward stage of the barrel, and corresponds with other 15th century variations of breech loaders. It seems that guns similar have been discovered from naval wreck sites and of that period, though these usually had series of pronounced bands. The shorter one with the rear loop ? seems to be possibly a handgonne or mortar with similar in Swiss types of 15th century. The example affixed in trough with dual iron bands seems to be of German steinbuchse type (stone gun) of 1460 + I am not sure of the significance of the flanged barrel mouth, and it seems the two muzzle loading were likely both stone firing. I think these can all be safely assumed 15th century. I hope that perhaps others out there who have more information might respond, and hopefully correct my attemprs at speculating. In the meantime, I know we all anxiously await Michaels return. Thank you so much for sharing these Andi. All best regards, Jim |
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#4 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Halstenbek, Germany
Posts: 202
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Thank you Jim and fernando for your replies.
In case an 15th century dating (or even better an early 15th century dating) of the barrels could be confirmed scientifically would be most welcome for me. So I have to hope and wait for an statement of the museum or of an authority like Matchlock. I think I really should try a second effort to ask the museum for the relevant information. Especially information how and exactly where and in which context this barrels has been found may be interesting. I will let you know as soon as I get the information. Its a pitty, I really hoped to communicate with Matchlock - I hope he is OK and will be active here soon. |
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#5 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Halstenbek, Germany
Posts: 202
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Cool: Today I have recevied the answer from Dithmarscher Landesmuseum
![]() ![]() Quote:
Dear ..., Here you have caught us in a sore spot. Because we know very little about these pipes. Their inventory numbers are 981-983. Looking in the corresponding inventory book and the oldest museums records, it is found that they were already in the musuem since early summer of 1874 (founded in 1872). They were passed from the parish council of the municipality Büsum. Furthermore it is specified that these weapons were allegedly found after the battle of Hemmingstedt and later served as clock weights ![]() I hope that you can work with this little information and remain I hope I will be able to visit the museum again to take more preciese measurements. Now I wonder if the barrels were found in such a bad condition that a reactivation as weapon was not possible or economoic. Especially shortly after a severe war, where you may expect a reaction from the defeated party the Danish King John I. Or maybe the barrels were been taken as a trophy and incorporated into the church. http://www.landesmuseum-dithmarschen.de |
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#6 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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So their age is in the latest XV century
![]() Now ... it fits within the wings of imagination to presume that the loops in both (Jim) gonnes were made for the purpose of their transformation into (hanging) clock weights....such loops may having been originaly straight rods, as for tiller guns ![]() |
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