Women wielding swords/daggers/bows in the past

Aleksey G. · 29th December 2008, 02:37 PM

Hello,
After telling my friends wife about my "sword collecting" hobby,
and showing her some of my collection, she curiosly asked me a very interesting question (or technically several questions) that after thinking about it I realized I dont know much about.

The questions were (paraphrasing):

What kinda weapons(edged) could women be allowed and would wield in the past and in what cultures?
were there really women assasins and in which cultures what what did they use?

I know the questions are broad but I thought if everybody could contribute
something it might make for an interesting discussion.

Please feel free to include any countries and cultures:
China, Japan, Middle-East, Inonesia, India, Europe and others...
Any edged weapons (in hand and throwing) and maybe archery?,

Any small bits of information are welcome.

Happy New Year,
Aleksey.

fearn · 29th December 2008, 06:26 PM

I'll take one of the easier ones first: Japan.

Yes, there were a few women warriors (onna bugeisha, or women trained in the use of weapons Tomoe Gozen was one), and samurai wives in general were expected to defend their households. That's one reason why in modern Japan and America, naginata-do is practiced more by girls and women than by men. Women also carried knives to commit suicide with. Supposedly there were female ninja, kunoichi, but I'm not sure how much about them is real, how much is fake, and whether they were assassins, spies, or some combination.

I'll also throw in an interesting weapon from Korea: the jang do (link to one at Pitt Rivers). These were small (~10 cm) knives carried by women (and men to a lesser extent) during the Choseon period. Jang do were so highly ornamented that they were also jewelry, worn a variety of ways. Symbolically, they were also given to young women before their weddings, to protect against rape, and also as a symbol that they were now independent from their parents and full adults.

My 0.002 cents,

F

katana · 29th December 2008, 06:44 PM

Hi Aleksey
welcome to the forum

Interesting question, heres a link to a previous thread which may interest you.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=amazons

Regards David

lemmythesmith · 29th December 2008, 09:33 PM

Hi Aleksey, women in Indonesia often carried a small keris known as a patrem for self defence.

A. G. Maisey · 29th December 2008, 10:15 PM

The patrem was probably not a defensive weapon, but rather a ceremonial one, which some women of rank were entitled to wear under certain circumstances.

In old Malaya, and some other localities in S.E. Asia, a very small variety of the lawi ayam or korambit was the usual women's weapon. Sometimes these could be carried in a fold of the clothing, and sometimes secreted in the konde (the bun of hair at the back of the neck).

In Central Jawa noble women would also sometimes carry a small, expensively ornamented dagger. Some years ago there used to be a display of these small daggers in the Mangkunegaraan musium in Solo. They were about 8 inches long, in the scabbard, handle of either agate or embossed metal, and scabbard of metal, in most cases this was gold or suasa---probably the reason they seem to have disappeared from display.

Thirty years ago in Malang in East Jawa I knew a woman who carried a cock's spur fitted into a small bambu grip. Indonesian fighting cock's spurs are effectively narrow, double edged daggers about three inches long.

In Jawa the pins that women used to hold their hair in place, the tusuk konde, also served as weapons, but this use was not unique to women in Jawa, my own grandmother once put a man who attacked her, into hospital, with a hat pin.

The pics are of a lawi ayam that was used in an attack on a man around 1920, probably in Singapore; it is 6" overall in the scabbard, and 5.5" out of the scabbard.

Bill M · 30th December 2008, 03:57 AM

Hi Aleks,

Well, you have seen what Anne has in her kitchen gallery! From Germany, to Papua New Guinea, with an emphasis in Africa, Philippines and Java. And an Arab Camel rifle....

Glad to see you posting here!!!

colin henshaw · 31st December 2008, 11:36 AM

Hi

Apart from the famous Amazons of Dahomey, I have heard of one other instance of women historically carrying edged weapons. In Chris Peers' book "Armies of the 19th century : East Africa", he mentions a report by H.M. Stanley regarding the Buganda King Mtesa having a contingent of female warriors in the mid 1870s. About half were armed with guns and the rest with spears. He also mentions some women fighters carrying mysterious "striped staffs"...

Freddy · 31st December 2008, 11:55 AM

Here are the Amazons of Dahomey. Fierce looking creatures !

Jeff D · 2nd January 2009, 03:41 AM

Well the question was wielding weapons. It may not always have been for war or violence. Other reasons were ceremony, art, dancing or the erotic. Here is a post card from Algeria.

Jeff

migueldiaz · 3rd January 2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Well the question was wielding weapons. It may not always have been for war or violence. Other reasons were ceremony, art, dancing or the erotic. Here is a post card from Algeria.

That's an interesting photo, Jeff.

I wonder what the message of the symbolisms are -- we have a young lady who seems to be lactating mother, and who is either pregnant again or had just delivered one, and then she's holding that ceremonial sword.

Moving to another location, here's an account describing an Igorot "amazon priestess":

"On the 25th [June 1747], Don Cuarto began the attack, but was soon put out of action himself by two rocks which struck him in the head. Apparently directing the defense forces was a sort of amazon priestess in their midst, naked to the waist, who kept inciting the Ipituys to fever pitch with her shouts and taunting the enemy with her invective and challenging them to shoot her, and although she was a frequent target, no ball found its mark -- a circumstance analyzed in the friar report of the battle as a sure sign of direct covenant with the Devil. The Igorots fought with such fury and war cries they literally foamed at the mouth, causing their enemies to suspect they had chewed some narcotic root to provide a suicidal intoxication."

The account was taken from WH Scott's The Discovery of the Igorots: Spanish Contacts with the Pagans of Northern Luzon (1974).

Jeff D · 3rd January 2009, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

That's an interesting photo, Jeff.

I wonder what the message of the symbolisms are -- we have a young lady who seems to be lactating mother, and who is either pregnant again or had just delivered one, and then she's holding that ceremonial sword.

Yikes! miqueldiaz,

I think it was meant to symbolize what it says, 'The saber dance' . I think her physic is only what is/was thought to be erotic. This is one more answer for the original question asked; "What kinda weapons(edged) could women be allowed and would wield in the past and in what cultures?"

All the best.
Jeff

migueldiaz · 4th January 2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

I think it was meant to symbolize what it says, 'The saber dance' . I think her physic is only what is/was thought to be erotic. This is one more answer for the original question asked; "What kinda weapons(edged) could women be allowed and would wield in the past and in what cultures?"

Thanks for the comment Jeff

Before I posted that earlier comment of mine, I was reading this earlier post, which said:

"In some tribes of Africa, smiths are outcasts that live outside the village. They are uncircumcised, therefore they posses both the masculine and the feminine, symbolically having the entirety which confers them, as in the Congo culture, the necessary protection to work iron, a product of Mother Earth's womb extraction."

And then I saw the pic you posted. So for a moment, it crossed my mind that perhaps the photographer was constructing a metaphor. Something like this and please hold on tight!

--

Mother Earth's womb and breast can yield both nourishment and destruction (or raw materials therefor ... e.g., metal ore which can be made into a scalpel or a sword, etc.). Now the lactating and/or pregnant girl in the photo symbolizes the thought, and the ceremonial sword sort of provides the link to the parallelism.

Then again I may be reading too much between the lines. Or perhaps it's the effect of the new herbal tea somebody gave me last Christmas?

Ok, I think too it's both!

Jeff D · 4th January 2009, 06:34 PM

Hi migueldiaz,

Thats the beauty of interpretation one is just as valid as another. Now were can I get some of that tea

. Jeff

celtan · 5th January 2009, 06:29 AM

Alternatively, she may 1. suffer from intestinal worms which have distended her peritoneum and bowels, 2. is fat, which was considered attractive in North Africa, and/or 3. the saber represents the surgical blade used to make partum episiotomies...

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

That's an interesting photo, Jeff.

I wonder what the message of the symbolisms are -- we have a young lady who seems to be lactating mother, and who is either pregnant again or had just delivered one, and then she's holding that ceremonial sword.

Moving to another location, here's an account describing an Igorot "amazon priestess":

"On the 25th [June 1747], Don Cuarto began the attack, but was soon put out of action himself by two rocks which struck him in the head. Apparently directing the defense forces was a sort of amazon priestess in their midst, naked to the waist, who kept inciting the Ipituys to fever pitch with her shouts and taunting the enemy with her invective and challenging them to shoot her, and although she was a frequent target, no ball found its mark -- a circumstance analyzed in the friar report of the battle as a sure sign of direct covenant with the Devil. The Igorots fought with such fury and war cries they literally foamed at the mouth, causing their enemies to suspect they had chewed some narcotic root to provide a suicidal intoxication."

The account was taken from WH Scott's The Discovery of the Igorots: Spanish Contacts with the Pagans of Northern Luzon (1974).

celtan · 6th January 2009, 04:34 PM

I have shot the Spanish M 1752 fusil, very similar to the M 1728, and it is reasonably accurate and reliable.

Most probably they didn't even shoot at her, the spanish are inured from birth to women shouting abuse at us, throwing dishes etc...It's almost a church-sanctioned way of showing affection...

I still remember the beating I got in Galicia when I was 10 yrs. old, from a 11 yo blonde, blue eyed celtic she-devil, just out of a whim...

In WWII, a couple of my grand-uncles served in the Wehrmacht in Russia. They were supplied methamphetamine-laced chocolate while at the frontline, which made them alert, aggressive and "roaring to go"...

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

That's an interesting photo, Jeff.

I wonder what the message of the symbolisms are -- we have a young lady who seems to be lactating mother, and who is either pregnant again or had just delivered one, and then she's holding that ceremonial sword.

Moving to another location, here's an account describing an Igorot "amazon priestess":

"On the 25th [June 1747], Don Cuarto began the attack, but was soon put out of action himself by two rocks which struck him in the head. Apparently directing the defense forces was a sort of amazon priestess in their midst, naked to the waist, who kept inciting the Ipituys to fever pitch with her shouts and taunting the enemy with her invective and challenging them to shoot her, and although she was a frequent target, no ball found its mark -- a circumstance analyzed in the friar report of the battle as a sure sign of direct covenant with the Devil. The Igorots fought with such fury and war cries they literally foamed at the mouth, causing their enemies to suspect they had chewed some narcotic root to provide a suicidal intoxication."

The account was taken from WH Scott's The Discovery of the Igorots: Spanish Contacts with the Pagans of Northern Luzon (1974).

Gavin Nugent · 7th July 2011, 04:09 AM

I couldn't help but raise this ole thread again after reading these links this morning;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomyris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Wo...emale_Worthies

Enjoy the read.

Gav

laEspadaAncha · 7th July 2011, 04:23 AM

Long live the necroposter!

Thanks for dredging the forum to find this one, Gav... The thread might be two and a half years old, but it's new to me.

Anyway, as I didn't see this she-biscuit mentioned elsewhere in the thread, here is my wife's own "historical heroine," if you will, Jhansi Ki Rani:

29th December 2008, 02:37 PM	#1
Aleksey G. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 70	Women wielding swords/daggers/bows in the past Hello, After telling my friends wife about my "sword collecting" hobby, and showing her some of my collection, she curiosly asked me a very interesting question (or technically several questions) that after thinking about it I realized I dont know much about. The questions were (paraphrasing): What kinda weapons(edged) could women be allowed and would wield in the past and in what cultures? were there really women assasins and in which cultures what what did they use? I know the questions are broad but I thought if everybody could contribute something it might make for an interesting discussion. Please feel free to include any countries and cultures: China, Japan, Middle-East, Inonesia, India, Europe and others... Any edged weapons (in hand and throwing) and maybe archery?, Any small bits of information are welcome. Happy New Year, Aleksey.

29th December 2008, 10:15 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	The patrem was probably not a defensive weapon, but rather a ceremonial one, which some women of rank were entitled to wear under certain circumstances. In old Malaya, and some other localities in S.E. Asia, a very small variety of the lawi ayam or korambit was the usual women's weapon. Sometimes these could be carried in a fold of the clothing, and sometimes secreted in the konde (the bun of hair at the back of the neck). In Central Jawa noble women would also sometimes carry a small, expensively ornamented dagger. Some years ago there used to be a display of these small daggers in the Mangkunegaraan musium in Solo. They were about 8 inches long, in the scabbard, handle of either agate or embossed metal, and scabbard of metal, in most cases this was gold or suasa---probably the reason they seem to have disappeared from display. Thirty years ago in Malang in East Jawa I knew a woman who carried a cock's spur fitted into a small bambu grip. Indonesian fighting cock's spurs are effectively narrow, double edged daggers about three inches long. In Jawa the pins that women used to hold their hair in place, the tusuk konde, also served as weapons, but this use was not unique to women in Jawa, my own grandmother once put a man who attacked her, into hospital, with a hat pin. The pics are of a lawi ayam that was used in an attack on a man around 1920, probably in Singapore; it is 6" overall in the scabbard, and 5.5" out of the scabbard. Attached Images

2nd January 2009, 03:41 AM	#9
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Well the question was wielding weapons. It may not always have been for war or violence. Other reasons were ceremony, art, dancing or the erotic. Here is a post card from Algeria. Jeff Attached Images

7th July 2011, 04:09 AM	#16
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Back from the depths I couldn't help but raise this ole thread again after reading these links this morning; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomyris http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Wo...emale_Worthies Enjoy the read. Gav

29th December 2008, 06:26 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'll take one of the easier ones first: Japan. Yes, there were a few women warriors (onna bugeisha, or women trained in the use of weapons Tomoe Gozen was one), and samurai wives in general were expected to defend their households. That's one reason why in modern Japan and America, naginata-do is practiced more by girls and women than by men. Women also carried knives to commit suicide with. Supposedly there were female ninja, kunoichi, but I'm not sure how much about them is real, how much is fake, and whether they were assassins, spies, or some combination. I'll also throw in an interesting weapon from Korea: the jang do (link to one at Pitt Rivers). These were small (~10 cm) knives carried by women (and men to a lesser extent) during the Choseon period. Jang do were so highly ornamented that they were also jewelry, worn a variety of ways. Symbolically, they were also given to young women before their weddings, to protect against rape, and also as a symbol that they were now independent from their parents and full adults. My 0.002 cents, F

29th December 2008, 06:44 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Aleksey welcome to the forum Interesting question, heres a link to a previous thread which may interest you. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=amazons Regards David

29th December 2008, 09:33 PM	#4
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Aleksey, women in Indonesia often carried a small keris known as a patrem for self defence.

30th December 2008, 03:57 AM	#6
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Hi Aleks, Well, you have seen what Anne has in her kitchen gallery! From Germany, to Papua New Guinea, with an emphasis in Africa, Philippines and Java. And an Arab Camel rifle.... Glad to see you posting here!!!

31st December 2008, 11:36 AM	#7
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Apart from the famous Amazons of Dahomey, I have heard of one other instance of women historically carrying edged weapons. In Chris Peers' book "Armies of the 19th century : East Africa", he mentions a report by H.M. Stanley regarding the Buganda King Mtesa having a contingent of female warriors in the mid 1870s. About half were armed with guns and the rest with spears. He also mentions some women fighters carrying mysterious "striped staffs"...

31st December 2008, 11:55 AM	#8
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Here are the Amazons of Dahomey. Fierce looking creatures !

4th January 2009, 06:34 PM	#13
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi migueldiaz, Thats the beauty of interpretation one is just as valid as another. Now were can I get some of that tea . Jeff

7th July 2011, 04:23 AM	#17
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Long live the necroposter! Thanks for dredging the forum to find this one, Gav... The thread might be two and a half years old, but it's new to me. Anyway, as I didn't see this she-biscuit mentioned elsewhere in the thread, here is my wife's own "historical heroine," if you will, Jhansi Ki Rani: