Hi,new member and a question please

Bontee · 1st November 2022, 11:31 AM

Hello,This is my first post,I thought this forum might be a good place to get some help.
I only have two blades,one is a katana in world war two livery in which the blade is dated 1576 though is in poor condition due to use.
The one I would like help in id’ing is a recent gift from an elderly gent who worked in the middle east in his early career,he told me he was given the knife by a local tribal head some 45 years ago whilst in Oman.The closest I can find is actually a sudanese dagger and was wondering if any of you guys have any idea what it might be.
I have no interest in its value I would just like to know something about it if possible.
Many thanks and all the best.
Kevin

Marc M. · 1st November 2022, 01:06 PM

Armdagger from Sudan, 20 th century.

Regards
Marc

Bontee · 1st November 2022, 01:42 PM

That was quick,Thanks very much Mark,yep I thought Sudanese,in view of the condition I am going to polish the blade as there is a small engraving and underneath the rust the metal is actually quite smooth and I think it will come up very nicely.
Maybe gently rub down the handle and clean the leather too.
Thanks again

kahnjar1 · 2nd November 2022, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bontee

That was quick,Thanks very much Mark,yep I thought Sudanese,in view of the condition I am going to polish the blade as there is a small engraving and underneath the rust the metal is actually quite smooth and I think it will come up very nicely.
Maybe gently rub down the handle and clean the leather too.
Thanks again

Just a suggestion....do not over polish/clean it as you will likely remove any age patina. It maybe 20th century but that was LAST century.
Stu

Bontee · 2nd November 2022, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Just a suggestion....do not over polish/clean it as you will likely remove any age patina. It maybe 20th century but that was LAST century.
Stu

Thanks Khanjar,Would you mind giving me your opinion on the “age,patina”I have come across this a number of times.It comes up in old weapons,banjos ,guns etc .Does the accumulation of ,can I bluntly call it “crud”have any influence on the values of these things.I can understand it on much more valuable older relics but on a knife like this which I am guessing has little or no real value (which as I have said isn’t of interest to me.) really matter ?.
A friend of mine plays banjo and he has a couple of very nice instruments,one modern one much older and he refuses to clean the old one ,I wouldn’t touch it if he let me ,it just looks filthy to me,he insists it is to be kept original.
Would cleaning this old knife up and polishing the blade be considered “not the thing to do”
many thanks again
all the best
Kevin

kahnjar1 · 2nd November 2022, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bontee

Thanks Khanjar,Would you mind giving me your opinion on the “age,patina”I have come across this a number of times.It comes up in old weapons,banjos ,guns etc .Does the accumulation of ,can I bluntly call it “crud”have any influence on the values of these things.I can understand it on much more valuable older relics but on a knife like this which I am guessing has little or no real value (which as I have said isn’t of interest to me.) really matter ?.
A friend of mine plays banjo and he has a couple of very nice instruments,one modern one much older and he refuses to clean the old one ,I wouldn’t touch it if he let me ,it just looks filthy to me,he insists it is to be kept original.
Would cleaning this old knife up and polishing the blade be considered “not the thing to do”
many thanks again
all the best
Kevin

Hi Kevin,
I see others have replied so you should have some guidance as to what is best for you to do to your Arm Dagger.... (nice piece by the way). What I mean by "age patina" is best shown by the pic attached of some brass Middle Eastern coffee pots I have. All have "age patina" and we are all aware of what brass looks like when polished. IMHO, these would not "look right" if highly polished. Hope this is of help.
Stu

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2022, 11:23 AM

As Stu has noted, the worst thing that can be done with a vintage weapon is to over clean it, to a garish gleam. While these were made following old traditional forms, they were still the pride of modern (then) tribesmen. The best respect that can be shown an 'old warrior' is to leave as much patination intact as possible, it has been well earned through time. Nice example, and the marking is likely more of a talismanic symbol than any sort of makers mark.
These were placed on blades as a kind of imbuement following tribal folk religions and superstitions, rather a kind of 'magic'.
Using a leather conditioner will best stabilize the scabbard and hilt and keep them from drying out and cracking etc.
On the blade simply WD40 is likely best, very lightly with rag or very fine steel wool if rust spots are deep.

Bontee · 2nd November 2022, 01:23 PM

Thank you very much Gents,I very much appreciate you all taking the time to get back to me .I will do as you suggest.Wire wool ,wd40 check.
Kevin

kronckew · 2nd November 2022, 07:15 PM

Active 'red' rust should be cleaned off gently and stabilized with a good preventative oil or wax. Search the forum here for 'rust' for more info.Opinions differ

The blue/black oxide form of iron oxide is 'patina' and should not be touched if possible. Brass or silver 'furniture' with oxide/patination is best just gently cleaned and oiled. Some like to polish silver, I don't unless it is my tableware. Some silver is just plated and polishing will eventually expose the copper/brass the silver used to be attached to.

1st November 2022, 11:31 AM	#1
Bontee Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Posts: 10	Hi,new member and a question please Hello,This is my first post,I thought this forum might be a good place to get some help. I only have two blades,one is a katana in world war two livery in which the blade is dated 1576 though is in poor condition due to use. The one I would like help in id’ing is a recent gift from an elderly gent who worked in the middle east in his early career,he told me he was given the knife by a local tribal head some 45 years ago whilst in Oman.The closest I can find is actually a sudanese dagger and was wondering if any of you guys have any idea what it might be. I have no interest in its value I would just like to know something about it if possible. Many thanks and all the best. Kevin Attached Images

1st November 2022, 01:06 PM	#2
Marc M. Member Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: Belgium Posts: 158	Armdagger from Sudan, 20 th century. Regards Marc

1st November 2022, 01:42 PM	#3
Bontee Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Posts: 10	That was quick,Thanks very much Mark,yep I thought Sudanese,in view of the condition I am going to polish the blade as there is a small engraving and underneath the rust the metal is actually quite smooth and I think it will come up very nicely. Maybe gently rub down the handle and clean the leather too. Thanks again

2nd November 2022, 11:23 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	As Stu has noted, the worst thing that can be done with a vintage weapon is to over clean it, to a garish gleam. While these were made following old traditional forms, they were still the pride of modern (then) tribesmen. The best respect that can be shown an 'old warrior' is to leave as much patination intact as possible, it has been well earned through time. Nice example, and the marking is likely more of a talismanic symbol than any sort of makers mark. These were placed on blades as a kind of imbuement following tribal folk religions and superstitions, rather a kind of 'magic'. Using a leather conditioner will best stabilize the scabbard and hilt and keep them from drying out and cracking etc. On the blade simply WD40 is likely best, very lightly with rag or very fine steel wool if rust spots are deep.

2nd November 2022, 01:23 PM	#8
Bontee Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Posts: 10	Thank you very much Gents,I very much appreciate you all taking the time to get back to me .I will do as you suggest.Wire wool ,wd40 check. Kevin

2nd November 2022, 07:15 PM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,178	Active 'red' rust should be cleaned off gently and stabilized with a good preventative oil or wax. Search the forum here for 'rust' for more info.Opinions differ The blue/black oxide form of iron oxide is 'patina' and should not be touched if possible. Brass or silver 'furniture' with oxide/patination is best just gently cleaned and oiled. Some like to polish silver, I don't unless it is my tableware. Some silver is just plated and polishing will eventually expose the copper/brass the silver used to be attached to.