eBay MORO KRIS WOOTZ??

Mare Rosu · 19th December 2004, 06:18 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT
Item is closed on eBay.
I am about to show my ignorance on this moro kris.
Was wootz ever used on the blades of a Kris?

I need help on this. Kris forum experts help me out on this.

nechesh · 19th December 2004, 06:40 PM

While this may indeed be a laminated blade, it is hardly wootz and i don't believe it is a Datu ceremonial piece either. Higher end tourist kris made in the late 20th century, most probably.
I have seen main beautifully laminated Moro Kris, but my understanding of wootz (which is, i admit, limited) is that it is something wholly different from the construction of the kris. I've never seen one with what i know of as wootz steel.

Rick · 19th December 2004, 06:59 PM

Highly unlikely that we will ever see an authentic antique (100yrs+) Kris made entirely from wootz .

Having said that I do wonder why not though what with the extensive trade throughout the area . Wootz cakes must have been available in the main trading ports .

Moro Pandays lacked knowledge of the forging process ?
They believed their steel was superior ?
The patterning wasn't important to them ? .........

I'll bet Mr. Pendray could make a beautiful contemporary kris blade from wootz ..............

Mare Rosu · 19th December 2004, 07:25 PM

mechesh;
whew! I thought I was mistaken on wootz blades. With my limited knowledge on Kris blades but I do know a little about wootz and did not think this was possible.

RICK;
You are right on Mr. Pendray I saw a picture of one he made with a jade hilt and boy was it nice.

Will try and find it a get back and post it.

Andrew · 19th December 2004, 08:13 PM

I've not read about wootz "technology" getting as far as the Philippines, and the seller did qualify the comment with a parenthetical addition of "layered, laminated, watered, Damascus". As we've seen, the terms are often innacurately used interchangeably.

Moro weapons are not my thing, but my first thought when I saw the auction was "tourist". The fittings just have that bazaar look to them, designed to attract the eye, and the blade looks crude. For the life of me, I can't see anything I would describe as laminate construction, let alone wootz or watered steel.

Federico · 19th December 2004, 09:28 PM

The pattern on this blade was made with a process of battery acid etching, and soil burying. Ive gone through a number of touristy and fake weapons, on whcih this has been done. A shame, as many had good hardened blades, on the thin side, but functional enough. But just the detail the guys making these things think collectors are looking for.

As for wootz, Ive heard (now Im not big on metallurgy, and its been years since Ive read much), that once its heated above a certain temp the pattern is permanently lost. However, to forge at the lower temps in which to keep the pattern, one has a tight temp range, in which you can either go to cool and the blade becomes brittle and breaks during forging, or to hot and the pattern is lost. Given this tight range of temperature. I could easily see a Panday, not knowing exactly what kind of steel it is, and forging it as he's forged a hundred other kris, and losing the pattern with the hotter temp. Or on the flip side, thinking the tight temp range to achieve the pattern, not worth the effort when pattern welding is more understood. Or on the flip side of that, perhaps there was ceremonial/talismanic beliefs making one stay with traditional steels. Who knows. But on the flip side, when looking at trading patterns, why werent there more wootz Chinese blades, or wootz Dhas, etc... Two areas closer to India. Particularly for steel, Ive seen chinese pots, European stock, and local Malay/Indo sources cited in various manifests. While British would bring in Indian made cloth, I havent seen records of Indian made steel. How common was wootz in Britain?

19th December 2004, 06:18 PM	#1
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	eBay MORO KRIS WOOTZ?? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT Item is closed on eBay. I am about to show my ignorance on this moro kris. Was wootz ever used on the blades of a Kris? I need help on this. Kris forum experts help me out on this.

19th December 2004, 07:25 PM	#4
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	THANKS! mechesh; whew! I thought I was mistaken on wootz blades. With my limited knowledge on Kris blades but I do know a little about wootz and did not think this was possible. RICK; You are right on Mr. Pendray I saw a picture of one he made with a jade hilt and boy was it nice. Will try and find it a get back and post it.

19th December 2004, 06:40 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	While this may indeed be a laminated blade, it is hardly wootz and i don't believe it is a Datu ceremonial piece either. Higher end tourist kris made in the late 20th century, most probably. I have seen main beautifully laminated Moro Kris, but my understanding of wootz (which is, i admit, limited) is that it is something wholly different from the construction of the kris. I've never seen one with what i know of as wootz steel.

19th December 2004, 06:59 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Highly unlikely that we will ever see an authentic antique (100yrs+) Kris made entirely from wootz . Having said that I do wonder why not though what with the extensive trade throughout the area . Wootz cakes must have been available in the main trading ports . Moro Pandays lacked knowledge of the forging process ? They believed their steel was superior ? The patterning wasn't important to them ? ......... I'll bet Mr. Pendray could make a beautiful contemporary kris blade from wootz ..............

19th December 2004, 08:13 PM	#5
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I've not read about wootz "technology" getting as far as the Philippines, and the seller did qualify the comment with a parenthetical addition of "layered, laminated, watered, Damascus". As we've seen, the terms are often innacurately used interchangeably. Moro weapons are not my thing, but my first thought when I saw the auction was "tourist". The fittings just have that bazaar look to them, designed to attract the eye, and the blade looks crude. For the life of me, I can't see anything I would describe as laminate construction, let alone wootz or watered steel.

19th December 2004, 09:28 PM	#6
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	The pattern on this blade was made with a process of battery acid etching, and soil burying. Ive gone through a number of touristy and fake weapons, on whcih this has been done. A shame, as many had good hardened blades, on the thin side, but functional enough. But just the detail the guys making these things think collectors are looking for. As for wootz, Ive heard (now Im not big on metallurgy, and its been years since Ive read much), that once its heated above a certain temp the pattern is permanently lost. However, to forge at the lower temps in which to keep the pattern, one has a tight temp range, in which you can either go to cool and the blade becomes brittle and breaks during forging, or to hot and the pattern is lost. Given this tight range of temperature. I could easily see a Panday, not knowing exactly what kind of steel it is, and forging it as he's forged a hundred other kris, and losing the pattern with the hotter temp. Or on the flip side, thinking the tight temp range to achieve the pattern, not worth the effort when pattern welding is more understood. Or on the flip side of that, perhaps there was ceremonial/talismanic beliefs making one stay with traditional steels. Who knows. But on the flip side, when looking at trading patterns, why werent there more wootz Chinese blades, or wootz Dhas, etc... Two areas closer to India. Particularly for steel, Ive seen chinese pots, European stock, and local Malay/Indo sources cited in various manifests. While British would bring in Indian made cloth, I havent seen records of Indian made steel. How common was wootz in Britain?