Balinese Hilt Help Requested

RobT · 19th May 2005, 02:23 AM

I am seeking information about the hilt of the Balinese blade shown below. I really like this piece (actually, keris are my favorite knives) so I hope that the pictures, coupled with the welter of my questions and observations, will lead to a positive ID. The hilt appears to be a winged creature of some sort. Is it a bat? Dragon? An akso (do they have wings)? None of the above? Does the creature's obvious erection have any significance? Does the tail give any clue to identification? Could the blade have had a religious function? It appears that the hilt is made of some sort of compo. I can see no evidence of wood, bone, horn or ivory grain. It is very light weight so I don't think it's modern automotive bondo. The color ranges from beige to tan to chocolate brown. The chocolate brown is only in recessed areas and on the bottom of the hilt. Could this be the remnants of some sort of finish? The hilt appears to have good age to it so I don't think it's a recent tourist piece. Furthermore, neither the subject matter nor the workmanship appear to be appropriate for a tourist item. If it is indeed an old piece, how did it survive in such good condition? In my experience, compo items are rather easily broken. Could this piece have been protected by a plating of silver or brass? If so, what would be the appropriate way to replate it? Turning to the sarong, what type of wood would be most appropriate to replace the front of the gandar? (Does that front piece have a name?) And finally, when I get a mendak for the blade, what type of stones would be most appropriate (I would like the metal to be silver). Sorry for all these questions and I hope it doesn't sound confusing but I wish to restore the piece and I don't want to make any mistakes and ruin a prized antique. It goes without saying that any information received will be most appreciated.
Sincerely,
RobT

nechesh · 19th May 2005, 02:30 AM

Rob, i only see the sheath and the blade tip. Where is the hilt? Would also like to see close-up of base of blade (gandik/gonjo), and an overall shot of the entire blade. Thanks.

RobT · 19th May 2005, 02:39 AM

Woops, sorry nechesh. A browser error failed to load the pictures. They're on site now.
RobT

Rick · 19th May 2005, 02:51 AM

I have never seen that hilt form before .

What's with the almost chrome like blade finish , plated , painted ?

I think I can see a pamor structure there , also the gangya is dark in contrast to the blade .

Have you had the ukiran off the keris ?
Are there any molding lines on the ukiran ?

Lastly I would strongly suggest not fiddling with it until you know more about the piece .

RobT · 19th May 2005, 03:32 AM

Thanks for your interest Rick. Please be at ease I'm not doing anything with this keris until I know exactly what to do. I am fortunate enough to be the current caretaker of this blade. When it gets passed on it will be in the same or better condition than when I got it. To answer your questions: There is no chrome on the blade and the gangya is the same color as the rest of the blade. What you see is just the result of my bad photography. The blade, although unplated, is rather light colored however and the pamor is faint. I have taken the ukirin off and there are no mold marks. Looks like we might have a puzzler on our hands.
Sincerely,
RobT

BluErf · 19th May 2005, 04:24 AM

Not absolutely sure, but it seems to have wings and eagle legs/talons. Perhaps Garuda?

VANDOO · 19th May 2005, 04:26 AM

A VERY NICE AND UNUSUAL KERIS, I HAVE ALWAYS FAVORED THE BALINESE KERIS AS THEY HAVE A LARGE EFFECIENT BLADE AND THE HINDU INFLUENCE IS STRONG SO THERE ARE MANY DELIGHTFUL CREATURES WELL DEPICTED ON HANDLES. THE KERIS SEEMS TO BE IN GOOD SHAPE FOR ITS AGE SO I WOULD JUST USE PROTECTIVE MEASURES TO PREVENT RUST OR KILL ACTIVE RUST IF PRESENT. SOMETHING TO KEEP THE WOOD FROM DRYING OUT AND PRESERVE AND INHANCE WHAT FINISH REMAINS WOULD ALSO BE APPROPRIATE. THE MATERIAL USED ON THE HANDLE COULD BE NATURAL, IT DOSEN'T LOOK LIKE AMBER WHICH IS LIGHT WEIGHT BUT THERE MAY BE DIFFERENT TYPES AND IDENTIFING IT IN PERSON IS DIFFICULT SO IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO JUDGE FROM A PICTURE. YOU MIGHT TRY THE HOT NEEDLE TEST ON A HIDDEN PART AND CHECK THE SMELL TO SEE IF IT HAS A PLASTIC ODOR OR A MORE NATURAL STINK

THE STONES MOSTLY USED IN BALI ARE LOW GRADE RUBYS AND SAPPHIRES MADE INTO SMALL CABASHONS. I MIGHT BE ABLE TO HELP YOU TRACK SOME DOWN IF YOU CAN'T FIND ANY 0N EBAY.
NOW FOR SOME CONJECTURE

I WOULD SAY THE HEAD AND FACE OF THE BEASTIE FAVORS THE FRUIT BAT, I DON'T KNOW IF THERE IS ANY HINDU DIETY BASED ON THAT CREATURE OR NOT BUT THEY DO LIVE IN THE REGION. GOOD LUCK

nechesh · 19th May 2005, 05:37 AM

I agree with Barry that the face is very bat-like, though the wings are not particularly. The tail also throws me and from the back it reminds me of Hanuman. Could this be some kind of composit animal. Bats do have some significance in the area, though i don't know exactly what. I have a fairly large, wooden hanging sculpture of a bat from Bali, so i wouldn't be all that surprised to find the creature in the form of a hulu. The material appears to be some kind of nature material. Maybe some kind of horn? It appears to have real age, not a new piece aged to look old. It has wear and a patina. I can't image what kind of composit material would have existed back then. Have you taken the hilt off yet?

The blade is a nice classic form, probably late 19th or early 20thC. Really needs a good etch and stain to bring out that pamor that i can just see traces off.

I think any uwer with real stones would look nice on here, though i am partial to the red stones like ruby and garnet.

tom hyle · 19th May 2005, 10:20 AM

I'm only getting the overall scabbard shot, the pic of the blade tip, and a frontal view of the figure (and 3 or 4 little boxes with red "X"s). There is a certain resemblance to the giant fruit eating "fox bat", but it does not seem to me that is the bat usually used in iconic representations; a more vampire-looking bat with a short nose and small eyes is more often seen? Hey, a Vietnamese guy looking for unexploded mines using a mak to clear off ground-vines on TV. Cool. Danger UXB, Vietnam. Bali blades do not usually have a deep etch as seen on Javanese and other k(e)ris. Is it possible the handle is stone? Hard to tell with the spottiness, etc, but the darker brown looks like it may be a deliberately applied finish; hard with a photo anyway, but also some of it appears to have been deliberately removed at some time?

tom hyle · 19th May 2005, 10:36 AM

OK, they all came up that time (I think; more anyway). Looks more like a rat than any other face to me. Definitely a mammal. The apelike crest of hair is indeed fairly typical of Hanuman. Hanuman is usually depicted with a shorter more Humanlike face, but there are certainly monkeys with long faces like this. Is it possible the wings are being worn, as a costume? Is there a legend where a rat/monkey/god disguises itself as an eagle or uses an eagle's wings or something? There's a harness around the whole shoulder area (except on the back, between the wings; for simplicity?) with shoulder armour? What are the two round protrusions just above the hands and below the base of the wings? It looks like those rows of lines (representing bindings?) go around both thigh and shin? A curious figure.
Clearly the Wicked Witch has been to Bali.

Rick · 19th May 2005, 01:58 PM

Hanuman did have the power of flight . If you check the illustration linked you can see the similarity in the hand/arm posture .
I'm going to vote for Hanuman in a rarely seen form . The erection may simply be the knot in his waist cloth as it is commonly shown in depictions of the Monkey God :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanuman

If you look at the Bali ukiran below the figure appears to be gripping his phallus but I don't believe that is the carver's intent in this instance . When depicted in Balinese ukirans the phallus is usually detailed and unmistakable .

nechesh · 19th May 2005, 02:22 PM

Yeah Tom, Oz's flying monkeys was really my first thought too.

The hanging Balinese bat sculpture i have is indeed this same type oflong snouted face.
Just a disclaimer, when i say etch i am not referring to a deep etch, just a bath in some fruit juice to help remove and rust and gunk. More a cleaning than an etch i suppose. But i guess the acids in the juice do etch the blade to some degree.

nechesh · 19th May 2005, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

If you look at the Bali ukiran below the figure appears to be gripping his phallus but I don't believe that is the carver's intent in this instance . When depicted in Balinese ukirans the phallus is usually detailed and unmistakable .

Oh sure he is Rick. This is obviously a depiction of an early Balinese Rap singer grapping his crouch. The club is his microphone.

19th May 2005, 02:23 AM	#1
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 469	Balinese Hilt Help Requested I am seeking information about the hilt of the Balinese blade shown below. I really like this piece (actually, keris are my favorite knives) so I hope that the pictures, coupled with the welter of my questions and observations, will lead to a positive ID. The hilt appears to be a winged creature of some sort. Is it a bat? Dragon? An akso (do they have wings)? None of the above? Does the creature's obvious erection have any significance? Does the tail give any clue to identification? Could the blade have had a religious function? It appears that the hilt is made of some sort of compo. I can see no evidence of wood, bone, horn or ivory grain. It is very light weight so I don't think it's modern automotive bondo. The color ranges from beige to tan to chocolate brown. The chocolate brown is only in recessed areas and on the bottom of the hilt. Could this be the remnants of some sort of finish? The hilt appears to have good age to it so I don't think it's a recent tourist piece. Furthermore, neither the subject matter nor the workmanship appear to be appropriate for a tourist item. If it is indeed an old piece, how did it survive in such good condition? In my experience, compo items are rather easily broken. Could this piece have been protected by a plating of silver or brass? If so, what would be the appropriate way to replate it? Turning to the sarong, what type of wood would be most appropriate to replace the front of the gandar? (Does that front piece have a name?) And finally, when I get a mendak for the blade, what type of stones would be most appropriate (I would like the metal to be silver). Sorry for all these questions and I hope it doesn't sound confusing but I wish to restore the piece and I don't want to make any mistakes and ruin a prized antique. It goes without saying that any information received will be most appreciated. Sincerely, RobT Attached Images

19th May 2005, 02:39 AM	#3
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 469	Here's the rest Woops, sorry nechesh. A browser error failed to load the pictures. They're on site now. RobT

19th May 2005, 02:51 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,282	Very Strange I have never seen that hilt form before . What's with the almost chrome like blade finish , plated , painted ? I think I can see a pamor structure there , also the gangya is dark in contrast to the blade . Have you had the ukiran off the keris ? Are there any molding lines on the ukiran ? Lastly I would strongly suggest not fiddling with it until you know more about the piece .

19th May 2005, 03:32 AM	#5
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 469	no chrome Thanks for your interest Rick. Please be at ease I'm not doing anything with this keris until I know exactly what to do. I am fortunate enough to be the current caretaker of this blade. When it gets passed on it will be in the same or better condition than when I got it. To answer your questions: There is no chrome on the blade and the gangya is the same color as the rest of the blade. What you see is just the result of my bad photography. The blade, although unplated, is rather light colored however and the pamor is faint. I have taken the ukirin off and there are no mold marks. Looks like we might have a puzzler on our hands. Sincerely, RobT

19th May 2005, 04:26 AM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY NICE AND UNUSUAL KERIS, I HAVE ALWAYS FAVORED THE BALINESE KERIS AS THEY HAVE A LARGE EFFECIENT BLADE AND THE HINDU INFLUENCE IS STRONG SO THERE ARE MANY DELIGHTFUL CREATURES WELL DEPICTED ON HANDLES. THE KERIS SEEMS TO BE IN GOOD SHAPE FOR ITS AGE SO I WOULD JUST USE PROTECTIVE MEASURES TO PREVENT RUST OR KILL ACTIVE RUST IF PRESENT. SOMETHING TO KEEP THE WOOD FROM DRYING OUT AND PRESERVE AND INHANCE WHAT FINISH REMAINS WOULD ALSO BE APPROPRIATE. THE MATERIAL USED ON THE HANDLE COULD BE NATURAL, IT DOSEN'T LOOK LIKE AMBER WHICH IS LIGHT WEIGHT BUT THERE MAY BE DIFFERENT TYPES AND IDENTIFING IT IN PERSON IS DIFFICULT SO IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO JUDGE FROM A PICTURE. YOU MIGHT TRY THE HOT NEEDLE TEST ON A HIDDEN PART AND CHECK THE SMELL TO SEE IF IT HAS A PLASTIC ODOR OR A MORE NATURAL STINK THE STONES MOSTLY USED IN BALI ARE LOW GRADE RUBYS AND SAPPHIRES MADE INTO SMALL CABASHONS. I MIGHT BE ABLE TO HELP YOU TRACK SOME DOWN IF YOU CAN'T FIND ANY 0N EBAY. NOW FOR SOME CONJECTURE I WOULD SAY THE HEAD AND FACE OF THE BEASTIE FAVORS THE FRUIT BAT, I DON'T KNOW IF THERE IS ANY HINDU DIETY BASED ON THAT CREATURE OR NOT BUT THEY DO LIVE IN THE REGION. GOOD LUCK Last edited by VANDOO; 19th May 2005 at 04:41 AM.

19th May 2005, 02:30 AM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Rob, i only see the sheath and the blade tip. Where is the hilt? Would also like to see close-up of base of blade (gandik/gonjo), and an overall shot of the entire blade. Thanks.

19th May 2005, 04:24 AM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Not absolutely sure, but it seems to have wings and eagle legs/talons. Perhaps Garuda?

19th May 2005, 05:37 AM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I agree with Barry that the face is very bat-like, though the wings are not particularly. The tail also throws me and from the back it reminds me of Hanuman. Could this be some kind of composit animal. Bats do have some significance in the area, though i don't know exactly what. I have a fairly large, wooden hanging sculpture of a bat from Bali, so i wouldn't be all that surprised to find the creature in the form of a hulu. The material appears to be some kind of nature material. Maybe some kind of horn? It appears to have real age, not a new piece aged to look old. It has wear and a patina. I can't image what kind of composit material would have existed back then. Have you taken the hilt off yet? The blade is a nice classic form, probably late 19th or early 20thC. Really needs a good etch and stain to bring out that pamor that i can just see traces off. I think any uwer with real stones would look nice on here, though i am partial to the red stones like ruby and garnet.

19th May 2005, 10:20 AM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'm only getting the overall scabbard shot, the pic of the blade tip, and a frontal view of the figure (and 3 or 4 little boxes with red "X"s). There is a certain resemblance to the giant fruit eating "fox bat", but it does not seem to me that is the bat usually used in iconic representations; a more vampire-looking bat with a short nose and small eyes is more often seen? Hey, a Vietnamese guy looking for unexploded mines using a mak to clear off ground-vines on TV. Cool. Danger UXB, Vietnam. Bali blades do not usually have a deep etch as seen on Javanese and other k(e)ris. Is it possible the handle is stone? Hard to tell with the spottiness, etc, but the darker brown looks like it may be a deliberately applied finish; hard with a photo anyway, but also some of it appears to have been deliberately removed at some time?

19th May 2005, 10:36 AM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	OK, they all came up that time (I think; more anyway). Looks more like a rat than any other face to me. Definitely a mammal. The apelike crest of hair is indeed fairly typical of Hanuman. Hanuman is usually depicted with a shorter more Humanlike face, but there are certainly monkeys with long faces like this. Is it possible the wings are being worn, as a costume? Is there a legend where a rat/monkey/god disguises itself as an eagle or uses an eagle's wings or something? There's a harness around the whole shoulder area (except on the back, between the wings; for simplicity?) with shoulder armour? What are the two round protrusions just above the hands and below the base of the wings? It looks like those rows of lines (representing bindings?) go around both thigh and shin? A curious figure. Clearly the Wicked Witch has been to Bali.

19th May 2005, 01:58 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,282	Hanuman did have the power of flight . If you check the illustration linked you can see the similarity in the hand/arm posture . I'm going to vote for Hanuman in a rarely seen form . The erection may simply be the knot in his waist cloth as it is commonly shown in depictions of the Monkey God : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanuman If you look at the Bali ukiran below the figure appears to be gripping his phallus but I don't believe that is the carver's intent in this instance . When depicted in Balinese ukirans the phallus is usually detailed and unmistakable . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 19th May 2005 at 02:12 PM.

19th May 2005, 02:22 PM	#12
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Yeah Tom, Oz's flying monkeys was really my first thought too. The hanging Balinese bat sculpture i have is indeed this same type oflong snouted face. Just a disclaimer, when i say etch i am not referring to a deep etch, just a bath in some fruit juice to help remove and rust and gunk. More a cleaning than an etch i suppose. But i guess the acids in the juice do etch the blade to some degree.