Quality of edged weapons (101)?

driftwould · 31st August 2014, 04:43 PM

Hi all,

I've been having a really hard time finding information about how to tell what level of quality a given bladed weapon (specifically, ethnographic daggers/swords) is. Forgive me if I've missed some well publicized post on this blog, or something obvious on the wider 'net, but the only things I come up with out there are Spyderco folding knives and so on. As for going to a country, visiting its smiths and/or knife/dagger salesmen and knowing enough to identify a well forged ethnographic blade vs. a low quality tourist rip off, I'm coming up blank. I've run into this problem in the Philippines, Taiwan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan just to name a few. I'm not totally naive... but I just can't find anyone with this kind of knowledge who's willing to pass it on to me.

To give it some focus, I've been collecting Uighur, Tajik and Uzbek Pichoks and will be adding Taiwanese aboriginal blades to my collection over the next few years. The focus of my collection is newly made pieces in traditional styles which could actually be used if I wanted to.

Think back to when you knew little/nothing about this stuff. How did all of you gain your seemingly encyclopedic knowledge?

Hopefully someone out there can help me out!

Shakethetrees · 31st August 2014, 07:33 PM

DW,

It's something that you build on over time.

1. Learn how to differentiate between hand filing/stoning and power grinding/polishing.

2. Hot work is also a key to spotting differences in age. Are there telltale signs of welding techniques that only were developed in the 19th or 20th centuries, and were these "modern" tools available in that time, at that place? Understand what type of brazing and welding is appropriate for the location and period.

3. Materials have changed over time as well. Iron and steel underwent terrific changes during the mid 19th century in the West. Learn to spot traditional wrought iron, pattern welded steel, wootz steel, etc. from modern mild steel made by the Bessemer process. The forums here have a lot of posts discussing old traditional steels in blades and lightly etching them to bring out the pattern. Study the before and after photos.

4. The presence of aluminum is another tell. This's metal did not exist in metallic form until about the middle of the 19th century, and was considered so rare that it was used as a precious metal for a while. It didn't really show up in remote areas of the world until after the First World War.

4a. The same rule applies to stainless steel (rostfrei). A modern development.

One book I highly recommend is by Leo Figiel, called "On Damascus Steel". While you're at it, no study is ready to begin without George Cameron Stone's masterwork, "A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration, and Use of Arms and Armor". It's inexpensive, has some glaring omissions and a few mistakes, but it's the first book I pick up when something comes up that I'm unfamiliar with.

5. Back to materials, learn how to differentiate wood from horn from bone from ivory from plastic. I see a lot of mis identification even on this forum from time to time!

If you really want to get I to it distinguish one type of plastic from another, but this is something that is way down the list.

6. Learn what natural wear and tear looks like, as opposed to artificial distressing.

7. Learn what artificial applied patinas and coloration looks like. This might be one of the most important things to learn.

When collecting, know that this is a long term learning experience. You will make mistakes from time to time, (hopefully not too costly so as to discourage you from collecting). These mistakes can be looked at as tuition-the cost of an education.

One thing that could put you on the fast track here is to get a mentor who is trustworthy, not someone who is always trying to sell you something or trying to buy from you. You can sell and buy with/through this mentor, but I would do so only after establishing trust. That's where it gets tricky.

Always learn to ask the right questions, those well thought out, and not necessarily the same ones over and over again. If you tend to not ask the right questions, he will think you're not catching on, and this will chase away a potential mentor who will see is as wasting their time.

Good luck, and have a good time!

Oliver Pinchot · 31st August 2014, 07:45 PM

Collecting anything, from pebbles to Renaissance portraits, is a matter of experience.

If you're collecting modern blades in "traditional" styles from Central and East Asia, you're in the enviable position of being able to take notes and snap reference images with your phone as you shop. This will allow you to make some comparisons at the end of the day. Compare details such as form and embellishment. Whatever you're seeing multiples of isn't likely to be the best work available.

Before you ever set foot in a market, bazaar or suk, you should be thoroughly familiar with what these "traditional" styles are. With this in mind:

--Examine as many originals as you can, ideally in museums and private collections. If there are none available near you, buy books. There are a number of Soviet-era Russian works with English summaries that provide good treatments on Uighur, Uzbek, Turkmen and other Central Asian general ethnic arts. These often contain edged weapons, you just have to look.
--Don't credit hearsay, particularly not from a seller, most especially one you don't know.
-- If you make a purchase and later regret it based upon your continued observations: Congratulations, you've learned something. Consider the cost of the piece a payment against your tuition.

Good luck and have fun learning!

Shakethetrees · 31st August 2014, 08:24 PM

Oliver,

Good advice on seeing multiples. Someone is cranking them out by the boatload!

Anything a seller says should be taken with a grain of salt. His job is to sell, sell, sell.

Buy from a position of knowledge, but keep it understated. Ticking off a seller, especially if he has something that is good and it is undervalued, could cause him to pull it from the table!

A. G. Maisey · 1st September 2014, 11:02 AM

Everything that STT and Oliver have said is relevant to your question, however, I am unable to be as specific either of these two gentlemen.

Perhaps the very first question to answer is exactly what is meant by "quality" in any particular field.

Are you going to judge quality in accordance with the parameters used by collectors and other authorities who are outside the relevant culture/society, or are you going to judge quality in accordance with the standards used within the culture/society ?

If within the relevant culture/society, will you apply the standards of the people within that society who are recognised arbiters, or will you apply the standards of the general mass?

Then there is the problem of time:- something that is accepted as an object of high quality today, may not have been highly regarded at the time it was produced, and the opposite can also be the case.

Since you are focussed on modern interpretations of traditional weapons, perhaps you need to understand how the people within the relevant society/culture see the weapon in question in today's terms. Has the weapon developed into an art work, has the form developed into something a little different from what it used to be, or are the modern makers attempting to copy and reproduce styles from the past?

Perhaps it may be relevant to use the standards of modern custom cutlers, where you would apply the three "F's" :- fit, finish, functionality.

But if the weapon has developed into an art work, then functionality no longer applies.

I apologise for raising more questions than I have answered, but I do believe that you first need to clarify your collecting objectives, and perhaps the first question you must clarify for yourself is exactly what standards you intend to apply:- the standards within the culture /society, or the standards of collectors who are outside the culture/society.

In my own field of specialisation there can often be a very wide gap between one of the several standards that can apply in Javanese or Balinese society, and the standards that apply amongst collectors outside those societies. All these standards can be argued to be valid, but we need to be clear in our own minds about which standard it is that we apply for our own collecting.

VANDOO · 1st September 2014, 09:16 PM

A DEEP AND COMPLICATED QUESTION AND ONE THAT WILL VARY WITH EACH INDIVIDUAL COLLECTOR, I AGREE WITH ALL COMMENTS SO FAR. EXPERIENCE AND PERSONNEL TASTES WILL DETERMINE THE WAY WE COLLECT, SO EACH COLLECTOR WILL SET HIS OWN PARAMETERS FOR COLLECTING.
IF FOR RESALE NOW OR LATER THE PROFIT IS MOST IMPORTANT SO WORKMANSHIP, MATERIALS, AUTHENTICITY AND DEMAND MUST BE OF PRIMARY IMPORTANCE.
SOME OF US COLLECT ITEMS THAT ARE ATTRACTIVE OR ESPECIALLY INTERESTING TO US PERSONALLY REGARDLESS OF RESALE , PROFIT OR WORKMANSHIP BUT TO LEARN ABOUT AND HAVE. RESALE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED EVEN BY US AS WHEN WE PASS THEM ON IT IS BEST TO BREAK EVEN OR GET SOME PROFIT. THE COST, AUTHENTICITY AND ATTRACTIVENESS TO US PERSONALLY ARE OUR MAIN MOTIVATION.
SOME CHOOSE TO SPECIALIZE IN ONE FIELD AND ARE ABLE TO AVOID BUYING IN OTHER FIELDS. THEY MAY CHOOSE TO ONLY COLLECT A FEW OF THE VERY BEST QUALITY OR A RANGE OF QUALITY FROM LOW GRADE COMMON EXAMPLES TO THOSE ONLY FOR ROYALTY.

OFTEN THE MORE TECHNICALLY ADVANCED SOCIETY'S PRODUCE WHAT WE CONSIDER HIGHER QUALITY ITEMS. THEIR STEEL, GOLD, SILVER, GEMS AND INLAYS ARE TECHNICALLY SUPERIOR. BUT IN SOME SOCIETY'S THE MORE CRUDE TECHNIQUES ARE THE TRUE ONES AND WHAT WE SEEK SO THE PRIMITIVE CRAFT IS AUTHENTIC. SO COLLECTING IN THESE FIELDS REQUIRES WE LOOK FOR THE PROPER CRUDE TECHNIQUES, PATINA AND WEAR TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN MODERN AND OLD. STONE TOOLS OR STEEL TOOLS OFTEN MAKES THE DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY. THE PROPER MATERIALS AND DESIGNS USED ALSO PLAYS ITS PART.
WHEN DEALING WITH ITEMS MADE ONE AT A TIME BY HAND BY DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS AND TRIBES THAT CHANGE OVER TIME YIELDS A FIELD WHERE NO TWO ITEMS ARE EXACTLY ALIKE. THE FACTORY MADE ITEMS ON THE OTHER HAND ARE ALL MOSTLY ALIKE.
COLLECTING GOOD CONTEMPORARY MADE ITEMS MADE BY THE SOCIETY TODAY IS ANOTHER FIELD TO COLLECT IN AND HELPS SUPPORT AND PRESERVE THE NATIVE ART EVEN IF THEY ARE OFTEN CONSIDERED AS ONLY TOURIST ITEMS TODAY 100 YEARS FROM NOW WHO KNOWS?.
WE COLLECTORS ARE LIKE THE THINGS WE COLLECT, ARE ALL ONE OF A KIND AND EACH OF US FOLLOWS OUR OWN PATH AND LEARNS WHAT WE CAN FROM THE FORUM AND ELSEWHERE IN OUR OWN WAY. THE MAIN THING IS TO ENJOY, LEARN AND HAVE FUN.

spiral · 1st September 2014, 11:27 PM

in some way unused modern arms are more difficult to judge.

In Nepal 9 or 10 years ago old army kukri were sold for 4 times the price of a modern shiny lookalike piece, not for collector value just if it had lasted 80 or 100 years in a village you knew it was good! the locals would trust in it, The said new ones can look amazing then break , obviously due to poor steel tempering near the tang, poor steel, stress risers on poorly ground tangs etc.

If a knife or sword is to be used for real it should be tested, new or old.

The blade should be smacked at maximum impact into a thick oak {or equivalent.} plank {not the log end.} 3 or 4 times from edge, both sides & spine. {Safety gear may be needed.

}

If its ok, not bent broken or grip become loose then its probably ok to use if your life depends on it.

There are further old ww2 Gurkha tests to fine tune stuff for higher finesse, but the basic smash it & see from all angles lets you know whether it a user or not.

spiral

driftwould · 6th September 2014, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

A DEEP AND COMPLICATED QUESTION AND ONE THAT WILL VARY WITH EACH INDIVIDUAL COLLECTOR, I AGREE WITH ALL COMMENTS SO FAR. EXPERIENCE AND PERSONNEL TASTES WILL DETERMINE THE WAY WE COLLECT, SO EACH COLLECTOR WILL SET HIS OWN PARAMETERS FOR COLLECTING.
IF FOR RESALE NOW OR LATER THE PROFIT IS MOST IMPORTANT SO WORKMANSHIP, MATERIALS, AUTHENTICITY AND DEMAND MUST BE OF PRIMARY IMPORTANCE.
SOME OF US COLLECT ITEMS THAT ARE ATTRACTIVE OR ESPECIALLY INTERESTING TO US PERSONALLY REGARDLESS OF RESALE , PROFIT OR WORKMANSHIP BUT TO LEARN ABOUT AND HAVE. RESALE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED EVEN BY US AS WHEN WE PASS THEM ON IT IS BEST TO BREAK EVEN OR GET SOME PROFIT. THE COST, AUTHENTICITY AND ATTRACTIVENESS TO US PERSONALLY ARE OUR MAIN MOTIVATION.
SOME CHOOSE TO SPECIALIZE IN ONE FIELD AND ARE ABLE TO AVOID BUYING IN OTHER FIELDS. THEY MAY CHOOSE TO ONLY COLLECT A FEW OF THE VERY BEST QUALITY OR A RANGE OF QUALITY FROM LOW GRADE COMMON EXAMPLES TO THOSE ONLY FOR ROYALTY.

OFTEN THE MORE TECHNICALLY ADVANCED SOCIETY'S PRODUCE WHAT WE CONSIDER HIGHER QUALITY ITEMS. THEIR STEEL, GOLD, SILVER, GEMS AND INLAYS ARE TECHNICALLY SUPERIOR. BUT IN SOME SOCIETY'S THE MORE CRUDE TECHNIQUES ARE THE TRUE ONES AND WHAT WE SEEK SO THE PRIMITIVE CRAFT IS AUTHENTIC. SO COLLECTING IN THESE FIELDS REQUIRES WE LOOK FOR THE PROPER CRUDE TECHNIQUES, PATINA AND WEAR TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN MODERN AND OLD. STONE TOOLS OR STEEL TOOLS OFTEN MAKES THE DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY. THE PROPER MATERIALS AND DESIGNS USED ALSO PLAYS ITS PART.
WHEN DEALING WITH ITEMS MADE ONE AT A TIME BY HAND BY DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS AND TRIBES THAT CHANGE OVER TIME YIELDS A FIELD WHERE NO TWO ITEMS ARE EXACTLY ALIKE. THE FACTORY MADE ITEMS ON THE OTHER HAND ARE ALL MOSTLY ALIKE.
COLLECTING GOOD CONTEMPORARY MADE ITEMS MADE BY THE SOCIETY TODAY IS ANOTHER FIELD TO COLLECT IN AND HELPS SUPPORT AND PRESERVE THE NATIVE ART EVEN IF THEY ARE OFTEN CONSIDERED AS ONLY TOURIST ITEMS TODAY 100 YEARS FROM NOW WHO KNOWS?.
WE COLLECTORS ARE LIKE THE THINGS WE COLLECT, ARE ALL ONE OF A KIND AND EACH OF US FOLLOWS OUR OWN PATH AND LEARNS WHAT WE CAN FROM THE FORUM AND ELSEWHERE IN OUR OWN WAY. THE MAIN THING IS TO ENJOY, LEARN AND HAVE FUN.

Thanks a lot for the great response, Vandoo! Please see my response to AGM above.

driftwould · 6th September 2014, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Everything that STT and Oliver have said is relevant to your question, however, I am unable to be as specific either of these two gentlemen.

Perhaps the very first question to answer is exactly what is meant by "quality" in any particular field.

Are you going to judge quality in accordance with the parameters used by collectors and other authorities who are outside the relevant culture/society, or are you going to judge quality in accordance with the standards used within the culture/society ?

If within the relevant culture/society, will you apply the standards of the people within that society who are recognized arbiters, or will you apply the standards of the general mass?

Then there is the problem of time:- something that is accepted as an object of high quality today, may not have been highly regarded at the time it was produced, and the opposite can also be the case.

Since you are focused on modern interpretations of traditional weapons, perhaps you need to understand how the people within the relevant society/culture see the weapon in question in today's terms. Has the weapon developed into an art work, has the form developed into something a little different from what it used to be, or are the modern makers attempting to copy and reproduce styles from the past?

Perhaps it may be relevant to use the standards of modern custom cutlers, where you would apply the three "F's" :- fit, finish, functionality.

But if the weapon has developed into an art work, then functionality no longer applies.

I apologise for raising more questions than I have answered, but I do believe that you first need to clarify your collecting objectives, and perhaps the first question you must clarify for yourself is exactly what standards you intend to apply:- the standards within the culture /society, or the standards of collectors who are outside the culture/society.

In my own field of specialisation there can often be a very wide gap between one of the several standards that can apply in Javanese or Balinese society, and the standards that apply amongst collectors outside those societies. All these standards can be argued to be valid, but we need to be clear in our own minds about which standard it is that we apply for our own collecting.

It's funny that you should say just that, in just that way, just when you did- I just happen to have had a conversation about just that with a friend just the other day! ;^) Here's a distillation of what came out of it:

I asked my friend how he defines quality. This very farm-based analogy was his response: “I can give you a cow pie and tell you its quality. If you want to hang it on a wall, you'll tell me to go to ****. If you want to fertilize your garden you'll want a bag of the stuff. I would base quality on traditional made thing with A. Is it traditional. B. How well it works for intended purpose.” He added, “quality is based on what its intent is. If it’s a pretty object to be hung on a wall the quality is the aesthetic look. If its to be used its the resilience of the blade and how the handle FEELS (not looks).” Not a bad beginning, I think. That in mind, here’s what else I told him I’m looking for:

FUNCTIONALITY:
• I could, at least in theory, take the piece and, well, use it! There is a caveat though: There are plenty of examples of knives that are used in traditional cultures not for regular cutting, but for ceremonial or religious or superstitious purposes- for example as a talisman against evil or a sign of initiation. These pieces would be just fine because of their traditional value, which to me trumps their value as and edged cutting tool. After all, it’s their intended, traditional function. That goes back to my friend’s response. It also brings me to…

CULTURE, TRADITION AND HISTORY OF BOTH THE STYLE AND THE SPECIFIC PIECE IN QUESTION
• Pieces should:
o be part of, and convey, the culture they came out of, and its history.
o be made in the traditional style of a local culture (whether that be the old style or its LEGITIMATE modern continuation- see below).
• The story/history of the piece- my part of the story, the makers’ and sellers’ parts in it, and its place in the native culture and history- are key to a piece’s intrinsic value to me. Does this tradition stretch back to much earlier times? All the better! That brings me to…

PERSONAL CONNECTION:
• I place an extremely high value on going there in person to get them from the maker, at least for modern pieces. The harder it is to get to a place, and the more difficult the process, the more value I place on the piece.
o (That brings me to this problem: you need to know what the traditional, good ones are in order to pick something you can truly be proud to have gone there and gotten yourself. Hence, my original post.)
o (As a side note and good example, I have a well worn, dull, rusty old spear from the Philippines with no embellishment which I highly value. Why? Because I went there, connected with locals, went on a mini-expedition into the mountainous, rural and undeveloped heart of a backwards island on the back of a local friend’s friend’s motorcycle over hours worth of really rough two track snaking through jungle, hunted for old swords and found this by accident in the process. I have a video of my guide/motorcycle driver/interpreter/now friend interpreting from the local dialect as the previous owner stood in front of his hut and explained how it had been used in WWII against the Japanese, among other things. It was clearly not a sales pitch! The personal connection with the piece, and the man who was one in a line of owners stretching back into history, makes this a piece very close to my heart, and one of my most prized posessions.)

BEAUTY (AND UNIQUENESS)
• Pieces should:
o be beautiful pieces of art, and by that I mean refined and elegant, traditionally cultural pieces, NOT gaudy or touristy things. At the very least, it should be a good example of the traditional craftsmanship and artistry of the culture. I prize this highly!
o preferably stand out from other pieces.
o Not be mass produced or low quality pieces of workmanship (again leading back to my original post). I prize the sweat, muscle, skill and passion a truly skilled artisan has poured into a hand-made piece.

MONETARY ISSUES
• I’m not looking at these in terms of resale value. I'd rather keep them a whole lifetime, and then see them become heirlooms or something. That said, the good ones tend to be the expensive ones, and I figure I'll only be there once (or at least, once in this stage of my own story), and I can afford the money because 10 years from now I'll miss the knife more than the money.

QUALITY OVER QUANTITY:
• I will ALWAYS buy one good one over two so-so’s.

In other words, if you think like an anthropologist, art lover and a historian, and throw in a little Indian Jones, you’ll be close to understanding what I’m looking for! ;^)

As for your point about its value at the time of production vs. now, I suppose I’d make a personal call on that on a case by case basis- though I’d love more discussion on this! Your point about how people see it in today’s terms is also a good one. I should mention that, while I’ve mostly only had the opportunity to collect modern interpretations of traditional styles to date, it’s by no means my only focus! Historical pieces would be great, as would swords and not just the (mostly) daggers I’ve collected so far.

One last thing, about what you said about fit, finish and functionality, I think I’ve said plenty about my take on functionality, but could you say more about fit and finish?

Thanks again for the great response!

driftwould · 6th September 2014, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Collecting anything, from pebbles to Renaissance portraits, is a matter of experience.

If you're collecting modern blades in "traditional" styles from Central and East Asia, you're in the enviable position of being able to take notes and snap reference images with your phone as you shop. This will allow you to make some comparisons at the end of the day. Compare details such as form and embellishment. Whatever you're seeing multiples of isn't likely to be the best work available.

Before you ever set foot in a market, bazaar or suk, you should be thoroughly familiar with what these "traditional" styles are. With this in mind:

--Examine as many originals as you can, ideally in museums and private collections. If there are none available near you, buy books. There are a number of Soviet-era Russian works with English summaries that provide good treatments on Uighur, Uzbek, Turkmen and other Central Asian general ethnic arts. These often contain edged weapons, you just have to look.
--Don't credit hearsay, particularly not from a seller, most especially one you don't know.
-- If you make a purchase and later regret it based upon your continued observations: Congratulations, you've learned something. Consider the cost of the piece a payment against your tuition.

Good luck and have fun learning!

Oliver, thanks for that response. The idea of building up my own photo archive- especially with the way I use modern technology- is a great one! I'll have to start compiling what I've already got and be intentional about doing this in the future.

As for examining originals, that sort of gets to the whole point of what I was originally posting about- how do I walk into a booth in a bazaar and tell an original from an "original?" I visit museums when I can, but some of these in small knife making towns in 3rd world countries are stocked by modern pieces that I've been told by the curator could be bought for a hand full of dollars. Meanwhile, here in Taiwan (to say nothing of Mainland China) there are lots of things floating around in bazaars claiming to be originals, but many are obvious fakes, and those that aren't obvious to me may still be fakes. Many of these are things from relatively recent history (the last 100 or so years) that I have a deep interest in because of their unique styles and craftsmanship, as well as their historical value, but they wouldn't necessarily be represented in museums. How can I go about figuring out which ones are the real deal?

As for the Soviet-era Russian works with English summaries, I'd love it if you could post a few specific titles (and links?)!

On a related note, I'm fortunate to have at least one REALLY good blade museum, run by a master sword maker, here in Taiwan.

Here are a couple links about him (he's been called "Taiwan's last swordmaker")

http://www.jctravel.ca/post/view/vid...st-sword-maker
http://www.humansinvent.com/#!/9247/the-story-of-taiwan%E2%80%99s-last-sword-maker/

He's since gotten an apprentice, fortunately....

And here's his website, in case you're interested:
http://www.6989595.com/

driftwould · 6th September 2014, 04:43 AM

Wow! There have been so many responses here I haven't been able to keep up, but now that the weekend's here I can give this the time it deserves. Thanks, everyone, for your input!

OK, first, a quick response to Shakethetrees: Thanks for the list of things to work on learning, that's helpful. You also said, "Buy from a position of knowledge, but keep it understated. Ticking off a seller, especially if he has something that is good and it is undervalued, could cause him to pull it from the table!" Fortunately for me, I'm in my 9th of the last 10 years in Asia (China and Taiwan, and traveling in Central Asia, etc), so I have a pretty good bargaining skill set to draw on for this, and yes that's a very true point!

You also recommended I, "get a mentor who is trustworthy." THAT is a far more difficult task! Any thoughts on how to accomplish this? I've recently been visiting a knife shop here in Taiwan and talking to the seller there... but some of what he's said has left me wondering how much he's saying from a knowledge perspective (he clearly knows more than me), and how much is face saving about things he doesn't know (or thinking he does know)/hoping I might eventually buy something/valuing modern blade technology more than traditional handwork.... I guess one question would be how to tell if a mentor knows all he projects or thinks that he knows.

driftwould · 6th September 2014, 04:49 AM

Spiral, thanks for offering a lot of helpful points and advice as well. You said, "in some way unused modern arms are more difficult to judge." That, with your input on Gurkha style testing brought me to another question: Part of what I value in what I collect is that it be usable. I'll post more on that below, but presuming I want to buy a modern piece, made by a local smith somewhere like Central Asia, Taiwan or the Philippines, and I want to ensure it's genuinely usable, but it happens to be a beautiful cultural piece with beautiful, hand crafted traditional embellishments on the handle and/or blade, what would you recommend? This is actually a common scenario for me, since I place high value on both of these areas.

31st August 2014, 04:43 PM	#1
driftwould Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Currently, Taiwan. Previously China for 6 years. Speak and read 中文 well. Posts: 34	Quality of edged weapons (101)? Hi all, I've been having a really hard time finding information about how to tell what level of quality a given bladed weapon (specifically, ethnographic daggers/swords) is. Forgive me if I've missed some well publicized post on this blog, or something obvious on the wider 'net, but the only things I come up with out there are Spyderco folding knives and so on. As for going to a country, visiting its smiths and/or knife/dagger salesmen and knowing enough to identify a well forged ethnographic blade vs. a low quality tourist rip off, I'm coming up blank. I've run into this problem in the Philippines, Taiwan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan just to name a few. I'm not totally naive... but I just can't find anyone with this kind of knowledge who's willing to pass it on to me. To give it some focus, I've been collecting Uighur, Tajik and Uzbek Pichoks and will be adding Taiwanese aboriginal blades to my collection over the next few years. The focus of my collection is newly made pieces in traditional styles which could actually be used if I wanted to. Think back to when you knew little/nothing about this stuff. How did all of you gain your seemingly encyclopedic knowledge? Hopefully someone out there can help me out! Last edited by driftwould; 1st September 2014 at 04:37 PM.

31st August 2014, 07:33 PM	#2
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	DW, It's something that you build on over time. 1. Learn how to differentiate between hand filing/stoning and power grinding/polishing. 2. Hot work is also a key to spotting differences in age. Are there telltale signs of welding techniques that only were developed in the 19th or 20th centuries, and were these "modern" tools available in that time, at that place? Understand what type of brazing and welding is appropriate for the location and period. 3. Materials have changed over time as well. Iron and steel underwent terrific changes during the mid 19th century in the West. Learn to spot traditional wrought iron, pattern welded steel, wootz steel, etc. from modern mild steel made by the Bessemer process. The forums here have a lot of posts discussing old traditional steels in blades and lightly etching them to bring out the pattern. Study the before and after photos. 4. The presence of aluminum is another tell. This's metal did not exist in metallic form until about the middle of the 19th century, and was considered so rare that it was used as a precious metal for a while. It didn't really show up in remote areas of the world until after the First World War. 4a. The same rule applies to stainless steel (rostfrei). A modern development. One book I highly recommend is by Leo Figiel, called "On Damascus Steel". While you're at it, no study is ready to begin without George Cameron Stone's masterwork, "A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration, and Use of Arms and Armor". It's inexpensive, has some glaring omissions and a few mistakes, but it's the first book I pick up when something comes up that I'm unfamiliar with. 5. Back to materials, learn how to differentiate wood from horn from bone from ivory from plastic. I see a lot of mis identification even on this forum from time to time! If you really want to get I to it distinguish one type of plastic from another, but this is something that is way down the list. 6. Learn what natural wear and tear looks like, as opposed to artificial distressing. 7. Learn what artificial applied patinas and coloration looks like. This might be one of the most important things to learn. When collecting, know that this is a long term learning experience. You will make mistakes from time to time, (hopefully not too costly so as to discourage you from collecting). These mistakes can be looked at as tuition-the cost of an education. One thing that could put you on the fast track here is to get a mentor who is trustworthy, not someone who is always trying to sell you something or trying to buy from you. You can sell and buy with/through this mentor, but I would do so only after establishing trust. That's where it gets tricky. Always learn to ask the right questions, those well thought out, and not necessarily the same ones over and over again. If you tend to not ask the right questions, he will think you're not catching on, and this will chase away a potential mentor who will see is as wasting their time. Good luck, and have a good time!

31st August 2014, 07:45 PM	#3
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Collecting anything, from pebbles to Renaissance portraits, is a matter of experience. If you're collecting modern blades in "traditional" styles from Central and East Asia, you're in the enviable position of being able to take notes and snap reference images with your phone as you shop. This will allow you to make some comparisons at the end of the day. Compare details such as form and embellishment. Whatever you're seeing multiples of isn't likely to be the best work available. Before you ever set foot in a market, bazaar or suk, you should be thoroughly familiar with what these "traditional" styles are. With this in mind: --Examine as many originals as you can, ideally in museums and private collections. If there are none available near you, buy books. There are a number of Soviet-era Russian works with English summaries that provide good treatments on Uighur, Uzbek, Turkmen and other Central Asian general ethnic arts. These often contain edged weapons, you just have to look. --Don't credit hearsay, particularly not from a seller, most especially one you don't know. -- If you make a purchase and later regret it based upon your continued observations: Congratulations, you've learned something. Consider the cost of the piece a payment against your tuition. Good luck and have fun learning!

31st August 2014, 08:24 PM	#4
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Oliver, Good advice on seeing multiples. Someone is cranking them out by the boatload! Anything a seller says should be taken with a grain of salt. His job is to sell, sell, sell. Buy from a position of knowledge, but keep it understated. Ticking off a seller, especially if he has something that is good and it is undervalued, could cause him to pull it from the table!

1st September 2014, 11:02 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Everything that STT and Oliver have said is relevant to your question, however, I am unable to be as specific either of these two gentlemen. Perhaps the very first question to answer is exactly what is meant by "quality" in any particular field. Are you going to judge quality in accordance with the parameters used by collectors and other authorities who are outside the relevant culture/society, or are you going to judge quality in accordance with the standards used within the culture/society ? If within the relevant culture/society, will you apply the standards of the people within that society who are recognised arbiters, or will you apply the standards of the general mass? Then there is the problem of time:- something that is accepted as an object of high quality today, may not have been highly regarded at the time it was produced, and the opposite can also be the case. Since you are focussed on modern interpretations of traditional weapons, perhaps you need to understand how the people within the relevant society/culture see the weapon in question in today's terms. Has the weapon developed into an art work, has the form developed into something a little different from what it used to be, or are the modern makers attempting to copy and reproduce styles from the past? Perhaps it may be relevant to use the standards of modern custom cutlers, where you would apply the three "F's" :- fit, finish, functionality. But if the weapon has developed into an art work, then functionality no longer applies. I apologise for raising more questions than I have answered, but I do believe that you first need to clarify your collecting objectives, and perhaps the first question you must clarify for yourself is exactly what standards you intend to apply:- the standards within the culture /society, or the standards of collectors who are outside the culture/society. In my own field of specialisation there can often be a very wide gap between one of the several standards that can apply in Javanese or Balinese society, and the standards that apply amongst collectors outside those societies. All these standards can be argued to be valid, but we need to be clear in our own minds about which standard it is that we apply for our own collecting.

1st September 2014, 09:16 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A DEEP AND COMPLICATED QUESTION AND ONE THAT WILL VARY WITH EACH INDIVIDUAL COLLECTOR, I AGREE WITH ALL COMMENTS SO FAR. EXPERIENCE AND PERSONNEL TASTES WILL DETERMINE THE WAY WE COLLECT, SO EACH COLLECTOR WILL SET HIS OWN PARAMETERS FOR COLLECTING. IF FOR RESALE NOW OR LATER THE PROFIT IS MOST IMPORTANT SO WORKMANSHIP, MATERIALS, AUTHENTICITY AND DEMAND MUST BE OF PRIMARY IMPORTANCE. SOME OF US COLLECT ITEMS THAT ARE ATTRACTIVE OR ESPECIALLY INTERESTING TO US PERSONALLY REGARDLESS OF RESALE , PROFIT OR WORKMANSHIP BUT TO LEARN ABOUT AND HAVE. RESALE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED EVEN BY US AS WHEN WE PASS THEM ON IT IS BEST TO BREAK EVEN OR GET SOME PROFIT. THE COST, AUTHENTICITY AND ATTRACTIVENESS TO US PERSONALLY ARE OUR MAIN MOTIVATION. SOME CHOOSE TO SPECIALIZE IN ONE FIELD AND ARE ABLE TO AVOID BUYING IN OTHER FIELDS. THEY MAY CHOOSE TO ONLY COLLECT A FEW OF THE VERY BEST QUALITY OR A RANGE OF QUALITY FROM LOW GRADE COMMON EXAMPLES TO THOSE ONLY FOR ROYALTY. OFTEN THE MORE TECHNICALLY ADVANCED SOCIETY'S PRODUCE WHAT WE CONSIDER HIGHER QUALITY ITEMS. THEIR STEEL, GOLD, SILVER, GEMS AND INLAYS ARE TECHNICALLY SUPERIOR. BUT IN SOME SOCIETY'S THE MORE CRUDE TECHNIQUES ARE THE TRUE ONES AND WHAT WE SEEK SO THE PRIMITIVE CRAFT IS AUTHENTIC. SO COLLECTING IN THESE FIELDS REQUIRES WE LOOK FOR THE PROPER CRUDE TECHNIQUES, PATINA AND WEAR TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN MODERN AND OLD. STONE TOOLS OR STEEL TOOLS OFTEN MAKES THE DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY. THE PROPER MATERIALS AND DESIGNS USED ALSO PLAYS ITS PART. WHEN DEALING WITH ITEMS MADE ONE AT A TIME BY HAND BY DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS AND TRIBES THAT CHANGE OVER TIME YIELDS A FIELD WHERE NO TWO ITEMS ARE EXACTLY ALIKE. THE FACTORY MADE ITEMS ON THE OTHER HAND ARE ALL MOSTLY ALIKE. COLLECTING GOOD CONTEMPORARY MADE ITEMS MADE BY THE SOCIETY TODAY IS ANOTHER FIELD TO COLLECT IN AND HELPS SUPPORT AND PRESERVE THE NATIVE ART EVEN IF THEY ARE OFTEN CONSIDERED AS ONLY TOURIST ITEMS TODAY 100 YEARS FROM NOW WHO KNOWS?. WE COLLECTORS ARE LIKE THE THINGS WE COLLECT, ARE ALL ONE OF A KIND AND EACH OF US FOLLOWS OUR OWN PATH AND LEARNS WHAT WE CAN FROM THE FORUM AND ELSEWHERE IN OUR OWN WAY. THE MAIN THING IS TO ENJOY, LEARN AND HAVE FUN.

1st September 2014, 11:27 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	in some way unused modern arms are more difficult to judge. In Nepal 9 or 10 years ago old army kukri were sold for 4 times the price of a modern shiny lookalike piece, not for collector value just if it had lasted 80 or 100 years in a village you knew it was good! the locals would trust in it, The said new ones can look amazing then break , obviously due to poor steel tempering near the tang, poor steel, stress risers on poorly ground tangs etc. If a knife or sword is to be used for real it should be tested, new or old. The blade should be smacked at maximum impact into a thick oak {or equivalent.} plank {not the log end.} 3 or 4 times from edge, both sides & spine. {Safety gear may be needed. } If its ok, not bent broken or grip become loose then its probably ok to use if your life depends on it. There are further old ww2 Gurkha tests to fine tune stuff for higher finesse, but the basic smash it & see from all angles lets you know whether it a user or not. spiral

6th September 2014, 04:43 AM	#11
driftwould Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Currently, Taiwan. Previously China for 6 years. Speak and read 中文 well. Posts: 34	Wow! There have been so many responses here I haven't been able to keep up, but now that the weekend's here I can give this the time it deserves. Thanks, everyone, for your input! OK, first, a quick response to Shakethetrees: Thanks for the list of things to work on learning, that's helpful. You also said, "Buy from a position of knowledge, but keep it understated. Ticking off a seller, especially if he has something that is good and it is undervalued, could cause him to pull it from the table!" Fortunately for me, I'm in my 9th of the last 10 years in Asia (China and Taiwan, and traveling in Central Asia, etc), so I have a pretty good bargaining skill set to draw on for this, and yes that's a very true point! You also recommended I, "get a mentor who is trustworthy." THAT is a far more difficult task! Any thoughts on how to accomplish this? I've recently been visiting a knife shop here in Taiwan and talking to the seller there... but some of what he's said has left me wondering how much he's saying from a knowledge perspective (he clearly knows more than me), and how much is face saving about things he doesn't know (or thinking he does know)/hoping I might eventually buy something/valuing modern blade technology more than traditional handwork.... I guess one question would be how to tell if a mentor knows all he projects or thinks that he knows.

6th September 2014, 04:49 AM	#12
driftwould Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Currently, Taiwan. Previously China for 6 years. Speak and read 中文 well. Posts: 34	Spiral, thanks for offering a lot of helpful points and advice as well. You said, "in some way unused modern arms are more difficult to judge." That, with your input on Gurkha style testing brought me to another question: Part of what I value in what I collect is that it be usable. I'll post more on that below, but presuming I want to buy a modern piece, made by a local smith somewhere like Central Asia, Taiwan or the Philippines, and I want to ensure it's genuinely usable, but it happens to be a beautiful cultural piece with beautiful, hand crafted traditional embellishments on the handle and/or blade, what would you recommend? This is actually a common scenario for me, since I place high value on both of these areas.