Use of Actual Vintage Arms as Props in Early Films

[Jim McDougall]

While we are aware that in the fledgling movie industry from the teens into 20s and 30s, the sword fighting with swashbuckling heroes was typically done with either period fencing weapons, or rebated blades on the swords used. However, it does seem that in the larger scope of scenes with numerous extras and background crowds, there appear to be a variety of actual antique arms worn or seen in view.

I recall some years ago, I knew of several instances where collectors went to movie studios clearing out decades old props and auctioning them off, and these guys got some incredible finds! (oh to have been there!!!

I also had read somewhere that the great matinee idol Rudolph Valentino, had actually collected swords himself. I knew of course, that like most of the leading men in swashbuckling films,he had been well coached in fencing, and some were quite accomplished, Basil Rathbone most noted as one of the best. He often grumbled at being the villain however and having to allow being beaten.

In finding some detail on the auction of Valentino's weapons after his death in 1926, while seen in panoply as displays in his mansion, "Falcons Lair" in Beverly Hills, some of these do seem authentic. While I am under the impression she were acquired from antiques dealers by a decorator, I am wondering if they might have been taken from studio stores.

I am curious if anyone out there has weapons with provenance to the props or sets from films or actors, and especially if anyone knows of any of the swords once displayed in the Valentino mansion (or others).

[Kmaddock]

Hi Jim

Not Hollywood or film but I got this out of a prop room in a theatre in Ireland

A Katana in what are known as handachi (half tachi) mount dating from 1580's, razor sharp and great condition.

I taught it was a good repro.

I lucked out on this one.

Keep well and thanks for all your great contributions, I still remember your very nice welcome to the forum many years ago.

Ken

[Jim McDougall]

Wow Ken! THAT is exactly what I'm talking about! and that is even beyond astonishing to have found such a treasure in this situation. Thank you so much for entering this here, and for the very kind words. Having you join us here was very much our good fortune.

With this unusual topic, I wanted to explore a bit more on exactly this kind of situation with weapons used theatrically and in other such situations. For example, I have discovered circumstances where actual vintage swords were used in Masonic lodges and among regalia.

Conversely, in investigation of certain items found archaeologically, it was discovered that for example, items thought to be antique have many times been actually theatrical props.

Thank you again, very much,
Very best regards
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Jim,
In a British comedy/farce movie from 1968, Carry on up the Khyber, plenty of real Indian tulwars etc plus one of the main Khyber rebels sports a nice yataghan. Plenty of this kind of stuff in prop departments in the U.K. for obvious reasons. In the Sherlock Holmes T.V. series from the 80's which stars Jeremy Brett there are plenty of real weapons on show both in Watson and Holmes apartments as well as in various scenes throughout the series. Of course one would expect Indian weaponry connected to Watson given his history.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
In a British comedy/farce movie from 1968, Carry on up the Khyber, plenty of real Indian tulwars etc plus one of the main Khyber rebels sports a nice yataghan. Plenty of this kind of stuff in prop departments in the U.K. for obvious reasons. In the Sherlock Holmes T.V. series from the 80's which stars Jeremy Brett there are plenty of real weapons on show both in Watson and Holmes apartments as well as in various scenes throughout the series. Of course one would expect Indian weaponry connected to Watson given his history.
My Regards,
Norman.

Wonderful analogies Norman!!! and I have honestly gotten eye strain from trying to spot the weapons hung on Holmes' walls in various versions from film and TV.
Absolutely very British colonial influences, and Watson in 2nd Afghan War would have certainly brought in such things, I always recall the picture of Gordon, the notable Persian slipper with Holmes' stash etc.
It seemed I have always watched with eagle eye the weapons in films, and do all to restrain from declaring something 'not right', lest my wife bop me with the proverbial frying pan

In "Gunga Din" (the 30s original, which I have probably watched reaching a Guiness record since I was a kid) at some point I got stuck on the strange axe the commander held, said 'thuggee'. I spent it seems years trying to research these and these obscure bandits. I always wondered it the one they had was real, as these are so rare, never actually have seen one, anywhere.

All very best,
Jim

[Rick]

Why does Bannerman come to mind when we are discussing movie props.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Why does Bannerman come to mind when we are discussing movie props.

Rick, I missed your post! Bannerman's, the most intriguing surplus 'kingdom' (they had a castle on an island in the Hudson River) of all time!
I had thought of them with regard to movie and theatrical props using actual antique weapons, but as yet have not found any recorded links to these entities ever getting them from Bannermans.

It seems likely that stage drama producers situated on the East Coast might have utilized the huge stockpiles from them, but their productions were quite small compared to movies. The film industry of course was moved to the West Coast in the teens, thus beginning Hollywood, so unless there were cross country dealings, any use of them would have been incidental.

However, when one thinks of movies of the scope of Griffiths and of course DeMille.......the volumes of weapons needed would far exceed simple antique shops!

If only I had a time mschine! would have loved to prowl through the piles of old weapons they must have had!

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Wonderful analogies Norman!!! and I have honestly gotten eye strain from trying to spot the weapons hung on Holmes' walls in various versions from film and TV.
Absolutely very British colonial influences, and Watson in 2nd Afghan War would have certainly brought in such things, I always recall the picture of Gordon, the notable Persian slipper with Holmes' stash etc.
It seemed I have always watched with eagle eye the weapons in films, and do all to restrain from declaring something 'not right', lest my wife bop me with the proverbial frying pan

In "Gunga Din" (the 30s original, which I have probably watched reaching a Guiness record since I was a kid) at some point I got stuck on the strange axe the commander held, said 'thuggee'. I spent it seems years trying to research these and these obscure bandits. I always wondered it the one they had was real, as these are so rare, never actually have seen one, anywhere.

All very best,
Jim

Hello Jim

Since we are talking about films dedicated to Sherlock Holmes, it is necessary to recall the Russian version. There, in Watson's room, "oriental arms" are also presented. But, if you look closely at the items that can be seen on the carpet, the idea comes that Watson not only participated in military operations in Afghanistan, but he also had a secret mission to the Caucasus
By the way, if you haven't seen this movie, I highly recommend it.

This series received positive reviews in England. Critics noted that the creators of the series carefully treated the original source, and the atmosphere of the works of Conan Doyle was conveyed with true love by true connoisseurs of the classics of the detective genre]. Margaret Thatcher spoke approvingly about the series. In 2006, Russian actor Vasily Livanov, who played the role of Sherlock Holmes, became a Commander of the Order of the British Empire, and Livanov was named one of the best actors who played Sherlock Holmes.

https://russianfilmhub.com/tvshows/t...and-dr-watson/

https://youtu.be/lg2zQreEVKI

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Hello Jim

Since we are talking about films dedicated to Sherlock Holmes, it is necessary to recall the Russian version. There, in Watson's room, "oriental weapons" are also presented. But, if you look closely at the items that can be seen on the carpet, the idea comes that Watson not only participated in military operations in Afghanistan, but he also had a secret mission to the Caucasus
By the way, if you haven't seen this movie, I highly recommend it.

This series received positive reviews in England. Critics noted that the creators of the series carefully treated the original source, and the atmosphere of the works of Conan Doyle was conveyed with true love by true connoisseurs of the classics of the detective genre]. Margaret Thatcher spoke approvingly about the series. In 2006, Russian actor Vasily Livanov, who played the role of Sherlock Holmes, became a Commander of the Order of the British Empire, and Livanov was named one of the best actors who played Sherlock Holmes.

https://russianfilmhub.com/tvshows/t...and-dr-watson/

https://youtu.be/lg2zQreEVKI

Thank you so much!! This is wonderful, fantastic and brilliant! I had no idea of this Russian version of 'Sherlock Holmes', and the panoply of weapons on the wall there is outstanding. I see the extremely recurved Central Asian sword, the Russian military hanger with serrated back and of course the shashkas.

With the British situation in Afghanistan in the mid 1800s into the 20th c. it would not be the least bit surprising that there were connections to the Caucusus. As well related in Peter Hopkirks "The Great Game", these regions were a hotbed of intrigues that were far more complex and extended than just confined to Afghanistan.
I would say that is a fascinating interpretation, and I must check it out!

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much!! This is wonderful, fantastic and brilliant! I had no idea of this Russian version of 'Sherlock Holmes', and the panoply of weapons on the wall there is outstanding. I see the extremely recurved Central Asian sword, the Russian military hanger with serrated back and of course the shashkas.

With the British situation in Afghanistan in the mid 1800s into the 20th c. it would not be the least bit surprising that there were connections to the Caucusus. As well related in Peter Hopkirks "The Great Game", these regions were a hotbed of intrigues that were far more complex and extended than just confined to Afghanistan.
I would say that is a fascinating interpretation, and I must check it out!

I think that the props used in the film were not the recurved Central Asian sword, but one of those items that we sometimes call "Kurdish or Transcaucasian yataghans". By the way, many thanks for the information about Zichy's 1897 edition. I studied this book with great interest.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... In finding some detail on the auction of Valentino's weapons after his death in 1926, while seen in panoply as displays in his mansion, "Falcons Lair" in Beverly Hills, some of these do seem authentic. While I am under the impression she were acquired from antiques dealers by a decorator, I am wondering if they might have been taken from studio stores....

Your assumption is obviously correct, Jim. While it is possible (read probable) that some items in his collection were brought from studio prop stores, there is no doubt that the ones (all ?) listed in the auction catalogue were tagged as being authentic ... and from early periods. The Persian shield, sold for a good figure (circa $ 8.000), the not so old Knights of Pythias silver sword, a few rapiers from the 17th century, one signed by a famous Toledo master, you name it.
With a bit of patience one may browse the catalogue and confirm that the items at auction were the real thing.
Even his personal utilities had a collector's touch.

Best
Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Your assumption is obviously correct, Jim. While it is possible (read probable) that some items in his collection were brought from studio prop stores, there is no doubt that the ones (all ?) listed in the auction catalogue were tagged as being authentic ... and from early periods. The Persian shield, sold for a good figure (circa $ 8.000), the not so old Knights of Pythias silver sword, a few rapiers from the 17th century, one signed by a famous Toledo master, you name it.
With a bit of patience one may browse the catalogue and confirm that the items at auction were the real thing.
Even his personal utilities had a collector's touch.

Best
Fernando

Thank you so much Fernando for these notes and links. Actually I am still searching for more detail on movie props in the early studios, and there is a frightening dearth of attention to any weaponry that might have existed.
Most of the attention is to costumes and 'gadgetry' in sets.

I had always had the notion that Valentino had acquired these swords from movie props he either got from films he appeared in or had access to or association with. He was, of course, as many of the male leading actors, quite involved in fencing, which was part of general training. When I took fencing many years ago, the class was designated 'stage combat' which was of course very much aligned with the type of activity they would have learned.

However, in research I have found that Valentino had some issues with men challenging his masculinity, and that led to that extra masculine atmosphere he wished to be appointed in his mansion. It was the decorator(s) who acquired the antique arms and swords which were displayed, and in those days these were readily available and not particularly expensive. Even early rapiers could be obtained for remarkably low prices.

Those were the days!!!

[fernando]

I knew about some folks mocking his masculinity, those opposing his favoritism to contemporary Douglas Fairbanks. But i didn't know he took it so seriously as having his decorator to hang weaponry on the walls to prove otherwise, as if he needed to so prove. As a matter of fact, he had females 'dying' for him. But the point is that, frustrated or not, those weapons were authentic. I look forward to hearing from you about possible movie props around his mansion; apparently those that didn't reach auction/s.
Best
Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Fernando. It would seem that the idea the idea Valentino might have placed these weapons on display as props to augment masculinity was most definitely misplaced. In various sources, I found that after Valentino's death, his estate was auctioned Dec. 10,1926 at Hall of Art Studios, Hollywood and administered by his close friend and confidante S.George Ullman.
The catalogs of this sale are rare but several have been sold in recent years.
Several of the swords are included, one of which is listed as a Masonic Knights Templar sword (lot #615).

While this is not 'antique' , it is actually a Knights of Pythias sword (the FCB acrostic for their motto). It seems quite possible Valentino might have been awarded this by the local lodge, the Damon Lodge, #338, Hollywood.

In "Valentino as I Knew Him" (George Ullman, 1926) it is noted that Valentino and his wife traveled to Europe in 1924 and bought props for their upcoming movie "The Hooded Falcon" which was to be set in 14th c. Spain.
While these included clothing and other antique items, I would presume there was weaponry as well. This movie ended up not being made.

In this same book, Ullman notes, "...if a reporter showed any interest in the armor or firearms of which the Valentino collection is sui generis (=of its own kind), here once more his showmanship came into evidence. Not only did he possess specimens of every sort of sword, cuirass,spear, dart, javelin, assegai and what not, but firearms from the most ancient make down to the latest Colt were his. And if you thought the carving upon an ancient sword blade was inexplicable or unknown to Rudolph Valentino, all you had to do to correct your impression was the question him. With a flow of words in the careful English which many foreigners require, he would explain to you, not only the carvings significance, but in all probability, an historical sketch of the man who made it".

His mansion, named 'Falcons Lair', for the movie "The Hooded Falcon" was carefully appointed with antique furnishings which lent to his genuine Italian ancestry, and now, as I have found..........the antique arms which were in panoply on the walls and various displays, were genuine, and he clearly was discerning and knew the history of them.

It would be difficult to determine what became of these weapons after dispersed into private collections after auction. As a discerning collector it is doubtful that any weapons intended for use in films that were not genuine antiques would be of interest to him. Clearly antique weapons would have been acquired by other studios much in the manner Valentino sought them for his movie.

[fernando]

Good stuff, Jim. I am glad that my unprepared notion of this subject matches with reality. And so it appears that good old Rodolfo favored the use of authentic weapons on stage rather than replicas.