Labels, true or just heaps of bull****

Tim Simmons · 12th December 2010, 04:23 PM

I do not know? In my experience they are added spin. I got these two at a militeria fare today. Just guns and big war stuff, a few Indian pieces, the only ethnographic bits were a couple of knobkerrie a Chokwe axe and these. Not expensive but big enough outlay for items one would be cautious of.

I think it was early this year that I met a fellow member at the British Museum while viewing a small collection of many similar artifacts on loan from the USA {Washington DC} no photographs allowed. These two pieces do not appear to be any different. The club with the round stone held in a bent stick covered in tree resin is 54cm long not including the tassles {rather fragile}, 6cm diameter stone. I like this one the most. The one with the painted stone 61cm long, the stone just over 6x4x3cm. Quite whip like in action, small but would easily knock a hole in your head. I am just a sucker for bull?

Atlantia · 12th December 2010, 04:50 PM

Labels are the easiest thing to fake thats for sure!
That saying, the clubs look good! Where was the fair?

David · 12th December 2010, 04:59 PM

There are, of course, a great variety of styles and forms in the world of Native American clubs and i would be the first to admit that i don't know much about them. But one thing that does seem to be present in most of the ones i've see is a high level of craft which seems absent here. I am therefore rather suspicious of these as authentic examples.

David · 12th December 2010, 05:08 PM

Is is a link to some examples of Plains Tribes war clubs:
http://www.lithiccastinglab.com/gall...clubspage1.htm

Tim Simmons · 12th December 2010, 05:31 PM

Great Link David. I have some information to up load. Like you, with this sort of material one always has concerns about authenticity. I am on the fence. I have to say on inspection with a x10 loop there is a lot of craft, more than at first glance. The hide wrap on both items is not unravelled soaked dog chew hide. The hair still in the hide shows considerable preperation. Anybody can cut tassle in leather but I have to say they are very well done, very fine. Making a hole in a flint pebble is not that easy? The clubs on display at the British Museum were of all sizes and shape and size of stone. Many had the most beautiful beadwork on the handles.

There does seem to have been an auction of a Black Pipe Bank state collection, but I can find little info.

My reseach ref- Black Pipe Bank collection, has leed me to this auction house "SHOBE AUCTION & REALTY" I have email them to see if there is any possiblity of information.

fearn · 12th December 2010, 07:35 PM

It's possible they're genuine, since the wrappings are rawhide and the colors are consistent with what I've read for the Lakota.

That said, it's not hard to fake, and the specimens look a bit clumsy, compared to some of the other swinging clubs.

The real test actually is swinging them (not to hit anything). If the stone head goes where you want it, that's a positive. If it twists all over the place, I'd be more concerned.

Best,

F

Tim Simmons · 12th December 2010, 08:03 PM

Still undecided, but hurting somebody would be no problem. Some similar concepts of club. I could imagine hitting with the small stone club bringing great honour like the coup stick. I could just in dream land

12th December 2010, 04:23 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Labels, true or just heaps of bull**** I do not know? In my experience they are added spin. I got these two at a militeria fare today. Just guns and big war stuff, a few Indian pieces, the only ethnographic bits were a couple of knobkerrie a Chokwe axe and these. Not expensive but big enough outlay for items one would be cautious of. I think it was early this year that I met a fellow member at the British Museum while viewing a small collection of many similar artifacts on loan from the USA {Washington DC} no photographs allowed. These two pieces do not appear to be any different. The club with the round stone held in a bent stick covered in tree resin is 54cm long not including the tassles {rather fragile}, 6cm diameter stone. I like this one the most. The one with the painted stone 61cm long, the stone just over 6x4x3cm. Quite whip like in action, small but would easily knock a hole in your head. I am just a sucker for bull? Attached Images

12th December 2010, 05:31 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Great Link David. I have some information to up load. Like you, with this sort of material one always has concerns about authenticity. I am on the fence. I have to say on inspection with a x10 loop there is a lot of craft, more than at first glance. The hide wrap on both items is not unravelled soaked dog chew hide. The hair still in the hide shows considerable preperation. Anybody can cut tassle in leather but I have to say they are very well done, very fine. Making a hole in a flint pebble is not that easy? The clubs on display at the British Museum were of all sizes and shape and size of stone. Many had the most beautiful beadwork on the handles. There does seem to have been an auction of a Black Pipe Bank state collection, but I can find little info. My reseach ref- Black Pipe Bank collection, has leed me to this auction house "SHOBE AUCTION & REALTY" I have email them to see if there is any possiblity of information. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 12th December 2010 at 05:53 PM. Reason: adding stuff

12th December 2010, 08:03 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Still undecided, but hurting somebody would be no problem. Some similar concepts of club. I could imagine hitting with the small stone club bringing great honour like the coup stick. I could just in dream land Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 12th December 2010 at 08:20 PM. Reason: SPELLING

12th December 2010, 04:50 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Labels are the easiest thing to fake thats for sure! That saying, the clubs look good! Where was the fair?

12th December 2010, 04:59 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	There are, of course, a great variety of styles and forms in the world of Native American clubs and i would be the first to admit that i don't know much about them. But one thing that does seem to be present in most of the ones i've see is a high level of craft which seems absent here. I am therefore rather suspicious of these as authentic examples.

12th December 2010, 05:08 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Is is a link to some examples of Plains Tribes war clubs: http://www.lithiccastinglab.com/gall...clubspage1.htm

12th December 2010, 07:35 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	It's possible they're genuine, since the wrappings are rawhide and the colors are consistent with what I've read for the Lakota. That said, it's not hard to fake, and the specimens look a bit clumsy, compared to some of the other swinging clubs. The real test actually is swinging them (not to hit anything). If the stone head goes where you want it, that's a positive. If it twists all over the place, I'd be more concerned. Best, F