A cup hilt sword ... atypical, for your comments.

fernando · 31st July 2020, 06:48 PM

A great asset (for me) is the inscription VIVA EL REY DE PORTVGAL in both blade sides, written in the old manner.
The atypical detail, which i dare repute as rather rare, is the profile of the blade; waving in its first half and straight in the other half. I also dare say, by the looks of it that, this was not a later modification but was forged this way right from the beginning; first owner's whim.
I would say this is a sword from first half 17th century.

Blade length 91 cms.
Total length 109 cms.
Blafe width 40 m/m.
Cup bowl width 14 cms.
Quillons width 28 cms.
Weight 934 grams.

.

kronckew · 31st July 2020, 06:51 PM

Cool sword!

NeilUK · 31st July 2020, 07:13 PM

I have seen swords, from two-handers to slim rapiers, with flamboyant blades all the way but never a sword that was half flamboyant and half straight. I would say very rare, and Portuguese at that! Well done, Fernando.
Neil

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2020, 08:05 PM

This is an outstanding sword, and I agree with the 17th c. period suggested,
more toward the middle.
The undulating edge on the blade was known in the times up to the Renaissance as 'flamberge' and without going into all the etymological detail referred loosely to 'flaming' sword, and in most cases had far more to do with ecclesiastical allegory to the 'Sword of Paradise' in Biblical dogma. This sword was guardian to the entrance gates to paradise.

As noted, these blades were well known on the two handers, but seen on other swords as well.
As far as I have understood, there is far more aesthetic and imbued value in these undulating edges than practical, but along with the religious symbolism and invocations often seen on blades of the time, this feature seems well placed but indeed atypical for these kinds of 'arming' swords.

While I believe there are some examples with undulation the full length of the blade, it seems it is more usual to be in the upper half of the blade where more strength and metal stock is present. Blades of course tend to thin notably in the distal half so such features would be more difficult.

Philip · 31st July 2020, 11:31 PM

Parabens, Nando!

A truly rare blade form (half waved from the forte, straight towards tip) in a European context. Fairly common, however, among south Philippine kalis (kris) short swords, that configuration called kalis taluseko.

Jim: Re your comment on flamberge blades, I think that there is a functional component as well. When used for the thrust, the tissue damage from the puncture wound is more extensive due to the lateral waves. Greater shock and blood loss. That's why a number of central European boar swords (not spears) also have wavy blades, broad enough so the edges can be sharpened. And this is also held to be the rationale behind the wavy blades on many keris daggers of SE Asia as well.

ulfberth · 1st August 2020, 01:12 PM

That is a nice sword indeed especially the blade I to would place it as 17th C ! There is an almost identical one in the Museu Militar in Lisbon that one is described as 18th C, perhaps these are late 17th C early 18th C ? It would be interesting to find out when the first one's emerged to me this is typical Portuguese . Although I collect 16th and 17th C I would not mind having this one in my collection , perhaps Fernando will give me a call around Christmas

kind regards
Ulfberth

fernando · 1st August 2020, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilUK

I have seen swords, from two-handers to slim rapiers, with flamboyant blades all the way but never a sword that was half flamboyant and half straight. I would say very rare, and Portuguese at that! Well done, Fernando.
Neil

Thank you for the kind words, Neil !

kronckew · 1st August 2020, 10:41 PM

The filed in 'luks' do not look as good as the forged in ones which are a lot smoother.

I see in the one photo above the 2 swords on the left appears filed, the one to it's right appear to be forged that way, like the older More Kris. The bottom one looks forged too.

On a sword, the forward part of the blade is frequently the only part sharpened and used to cut and thrust, the rear half is unsharpened to resist your opponents blows on this stronger section. In a thrust you'd only use the first few inches behind the point, more is overkill (literally) and might make it easier to get stuck if you thrust too far in. You's never make it to the luks.

Likewise, you'd hardly ever be in a position where you'd cut with the waved bit, it's too far back. No force to an impact cut and even a draw/push cut would be difficult and not very effective. They still look scary tho.

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2020, 11:28 PM

In accord with Wayne's observations, I was wondering pretty much the same thing about the undulating edges on these blades on these rapier arming swords of 17th c. The wavy edges are in the upper half of the blade, thus the notion of worsening thrusting wounds not really viable.

Most of what I have read, alludes to the undulating edges on blades leading to undue vibration in the blade 'slowing' the dynamics of wielding it. It would seem that would be more to the distal half of the blade, as there the metal is of course thinner. What I dont understand is why the undulation would cause vibration any more than a straight edge in the same part of the blade.

The undulating edges on the two handers for boar hunting does seem to make more sense, and the flukes were to keep the impaled animal from working up the blade, again, as has been explained elsewhere.

Burton wrote on serrated edges on blades, bayonets in particular, noting that this feature was entirely counter productive as the weapon could usually not be withdrawn and became lodged.

Aside from these 'forensic' factors, the aesthetic or allegorical value of the undulating blades as I had mentioned were well placed in the ecclesiastic allusions with sword blades. The 'Sword of Paradise' was of course well themed in the context of chivalry which carried well into the evolution, lore and dogma of fraternities, military orders, and other circumstances where swords were traditional icons.
In Masonic situations, the Tyler, who guarded the lodge and held a sword, traditionally and ideally, these swords were in the dogma, to be 'flamberge' or wavy bladed. Naturally in practice, many other types of swords were used, many votively with old combat weapons.

With the keris, I had always understood the varying profiles of the blades, representing nagan theme, were with the 'snake' or serpent straight, it was 'asleep' while undulating, obviously awake and active. I have little to zero knowledge of the complicated character of the keris, so surely those who do will respond to elucidate. What Philip has noted surely is the logic in these Indonesian and Asian blades.
In India, there were many 'nagan' blades on khanda, pattisa etc. and in Islamic blades, the dual or bifurcated 'Dhu'l Fiqar' blades are typically undulating. On these the purpose was primarily aesthetic I believe.

fernando · 1st August 2020, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Cool sword!

Thank you Wayne

.

31st July 2020, 06:48 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A cup hilt sword ... atypical, for your comments. A great asset (for me) is the inscription VIVA EL REY DE PORTVGAL in both blade sides, written in the old manner. The atypical detail, which i dare repute as rather rare, is the profile of the blade; waving in its first half and straight in the other half. I also dare say, by the looks of it that, this was not a later modification but was forged this way right from the beginning; first owner's whim. I would say this is a sword from first half 17th century. Blade length 91 cms. Total length 109 cms. Blafe width 40 m/m. Cup bowl width 14 cms. Quillons width 28 cms. Weight 934 grams. . Attached Images

1st August 2020, 01:12 PM	#6
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 400	That is a nice sword indeed especially the blade I to would place it as 17th C ! There is an almost identical one in the Museu Militar in Lisbon that one is described as 18th C, perhaps these are late 17th C early 18th C ? It would be interesting to find out when the first one's emerged to me this is typical Portuguese . Although I collect 16th and 17th C I would not mind having this one in my collection , perhaps Fernando will give me a call around Christmas kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

31st July 2020, 06:51 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	Cool sword!

31st July 2020, 07:13 PM	#3
NeilUK Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Scotland Posts: 125	I have seen swords, from two-handers to slim rapiers, with flamboyant blades all the way but never a sword that was half flamboyant and half straight. I would say very rare, and Portuguese at that! Well done, Fernando. Neil

31st July 2020, 08:05 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	This is an outstanding sword, and I agree with the 17th c. period suggested, more toward the middle. The undulating edge on the blade was known in the times up to the Renaissance as 'flamberge' and without going into all the etymological detail referred loosely to 'flaming' sword, and in most cases had far more to do with ecclesiastical allegory to the 'Sword of Paradise' in Biblical dogma. This sword was guardian to the entrance gates to paradise. As noted, these blades were well known on the two handers, but seen on other swords as well. As far as I have understood, there is far more aesthetic and imbued value in these undulating edges than practical, but along with the religious symbolism and invocations often seen on blades of the time, this feature seems well placed but indeed atypical for these kinds of 'arming' swords. While I believe there are some examples with undulation the full length of the blade, it seems it is more usual to be in the upper half of the blade where more strength and metal stock is present. Blades of course tend to thin notably in the distal half so such features would be more difficult.

31st July 2020, 11:31 PM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Parabens, Nando! A truly rare blade form (half waved from the forte, straight towards tip) in a European context. Fairly common, however, among south Philippine kalis (kris) short swords, that configuration called kalis taluseko. Jim: Re your comment on flamberge blades, I think that there is a functional component as well. When used for the thrust, the tissue damage from the puncture wound is more extensive due to the lateral waves. Greater shock and blood loss. That's why a number of central European boar swords (not spears) also have wavy blades, broad enough so the edges can be sharpened. And this is also held to be the rationale behind the wavy blades on many keris daggers of SE Asia as well.

1st August 2020, 10:41 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	The filed in 'luks' do not look as good as the forged in ones which are a lot smoother. I see in the one photo above the 2 swords on the left appears filed, the one to it's right appear to be forged that way, like the older More Kris. The bottom one looks forged too. On a sword, the forward part of the blade is frequently the only part sharpened and used to cut and thrust, the rear half is unsharpened to resist your opponents blows on this stronger section. In a thrust you'd only use the first few inches behind the point, more is overkill (literally) and might make it easier to get stuck if you thrust too far in. You's never make it to the luks. Likewise, you'd hardly ever be in a position where you'd cut with the waved bit, it's too far back. No force to an impact cut and even a draw/push cut would be difficult and not very effective. They still look scary tho.

1st August 2020, 11:28 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	In accord with Wayne's observations, I was wondering pretty much the same thing about the undulating edges on these blades on these rapier arming swords of 17th c. The wavy edges are in the upper half of the blade, thus the notion of worsening thrusting wounds not really viable. Most of what I have read, alludes to the undulating edges on blades leading to undue vibration in the blade 'slowing' the dynamics of wielding it. It would seem that would be more to the distal half of the blade, as there the metal is of course thinner. What I dont understand is why the undulation would cause vibration any more than a straight edge in the same part of the blade. The undulating edges on the two handers for boar hunting does seem to make more sense, and the flukes were to keep the impaled animal from working up the blade, again, as has been explained elsewhere. Burton wrote on serrated edges on blades, bayonets in particular, noting that this feature was entirely counter productive as the weapon could usually not be withdrawn and became lodged. Aside from these 'forensic' factors, the aesthetic or allegorical value of the undulating blades as I had mentioned were well placed in the ecclesiastic allusions with sword blades. The 'Sword of Paradise' was of course well themed in the context of chivalry which carried well into the evolution, lore and dogma of fraternities, military orders, and other circumstances where swords were traditional icons. In Masonic situations, the Tyler, who guarded the lodge and held a sword, traditionally and ideally, these swords were in the dogma, to be 'flamberge' or wavy bladed. Naturally in practice, many other types of swords were used, many votively with old combat weapons. With the keris, I had always understood the varying profiles of the blades, representing nagan theme, were with the 'snake' or serpent straight, it was 'asleep' while undulating, obviously awake and active. I have little to zero knowledge of the complicated character of the keris, so surely those who do will respond to elucidate. What Philip has noted surely is the logic in these Indonesian and Asian blades. In India, there were many 'nagan' blades on khanda, pattisa etc. and in Islamic blades, the dual or bifurcated 'Dhu'l Fiqar' blades are typically undulating. On these the purpose was primarily aesthetic I believe.