Native North African sword

Bill M · 6th March 2008, 02:01 PM

Just received this sword. Looks like a native piece to me. Don't think tourists would be interested

But I like these old "users" as well as the high end pieces I have, many of which were more ceremonial.

I'd hazard a guess that this was carried by a common man, and it somehow has the feeling that it was important to him. No sand in it, however, I can see it next to some desert tribesman.

38.5 inches long, either with or without scabbard

Since the blade tip sticks through the end. Cloth bindings over some kind of reptile skin. About the only decoration is the scabbard tip.

Curious in that it is not sharp except for the first eight inches from the point.

Impressions?

Lee · 6th March 2008, 02:22 PM

An Omani kattara perhaps?

I like it too!

CharlesS · 6th March 2008, 02:26 PM

Looks to be a remarkably crude...and sadly...just plain ugly...Omani kattara. I betting this "wrap"(especially the hilt) is much later than the original fittings OR is the underlining to the original leather.

Here is what it more likely orginally looked like.(Example from Artzi's site)

Bill M · 6th March 2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Looks to be a remarkably crude...and sadly...just plain ugly...Omani kattara.

"Ugly?" I can accept "crude"

[Blows raspberry] further remarks deleted

Well, on looking at the pictures again, it ain't the prettiest sword in the world! But I still like it.

CharlesS · 6th March 2008, 03:05 PM

....sorry....maybe better words would have been "stripped of it original lustre".

I have seen several(at least 3) of these recovered with an equally unattractive rawhide type leather...the whole thing would be covered up, metal fittings and all...I never could quite figure out why.

NO worries Bill....you have no monopoly on "ugly lovables"....I think we all have a few like that in our collections.

Bill M · 6th March 2008, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

....sorry....maybe better words would have been "stripped of it original lustre".

I have seen several(at least 3) of these recovered with an equally unattractive rawhide type leather...the whole thing would be covered up, metal fittings and all...I never could quite figure out why.

NO worries Bill....you have no monopoly on "ugly lovables"....I think we all have a few like that in our collections.

VANDOO · 6th March 2008, 06:05 PM

BEWARE!!! THIS IS UNDOUTABLY THE SWORD OF KARIS WHICH WAS STOLDEN FROM HIS TOMB IN EGYPT A HUNDRED YEARS AGO. HE HAS BEEN STUMBELING AROUND EVER SINCE LOOKING FOR HIS MUMMY'S SWORD

WHEN KARIS WAS WRAPPED UP THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO THEY USED SOME OF THE SAME WRAP FOR HIS SWORD SO IT WOULD MATCH HIS OUTFIT. SO IF YOU HEAR A DRAGGING NOISE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND SEE A SHADOW WITH ONE ARM STUCK OUT IN FRONT RUN

NOW YOU HAVE A STORY TO GO WITH THE NEAT SWORD

Gavin Nugent · 6th March 2008, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

....sorry....maybe better words would have been "stripped of it original lustre".

I have seen several(at least 3) of these recovered with an equally unattractive rawhide type leather...the whole thing would be covered up, metal fittings and all...I never could quite figure out why.

NO worries Bill....you have no monopoly on "ugly lovables"....I think we all have a few like that in our collections.

My thoughts on coverings of these African swords is that the steel would get extremely hot under the African sun, I don't think I could wield comfortably a sword that has been sitting in 40 degree plus heat all day, chances are that your hands would first reach for the steel pommel before being drawn and if it had a guard fingers would get burnt there too upon gripping the blade....

regards

Gav

Chris Evans · 7th March 2008, 06:04 AM

Hi Gavin,

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

My thoughts on coverings of these African swords is that the steel would get extremely hot under the African sun, I don't think I could wield comfortably a sword that has been sitting in 40 degree plus heat all day, chances are that your hands would first reach for the steel pommel before being drawn and if it had a guard fingers would get burnt there too upon gripping the blade....

regards

Gav

A rather astute observation, if I may say so - I often wondered about this, especially the arms and armour worn during the crusades - Helmets and armour must have got dangerously hot, even in European summers, let alone the ME summers. Maybe they wore gloves or gauntlets, and perhaps shielded it from the sun with some cloth.

Cheers
Chris
PS What happened to your king sized navaja?

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2008, 03:04 PM

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I'm completely on board with Lee and Charles in that this seems likely to be Omani, and is most likely, as noted, a rugged piece carried by a tribesman. While this one certainly carries none of the attractiveness of the examples from Oman as seen on Artzis site, it is definitely loaded with desert charm and perhaps mystery.
While this has appearances of the kattara, especially in the guardless hilt, and has a blade typical of kaskaras, seen also on the Omani kattaras, there are elements that do bring this to North Africa.
The presence of reptile skin is one, but also the blade tip is sharpened to a spear type point, contrary to the somewhat spatulate tips on kattaras. The rugged cloth wrapping suggests many desert weapons carried by tribes of Bedouin .

I have always considered the unusual guardless sabres of the Manding, found primarily in Mali, to be possibly associated to the Omani kattara at least nominally owing to the hilt. The trade routes of the Sahara clearly diffused both cultural elements as well as weaponry across North Africa, which clearly has included forms from as far as Zanzibar, through Ethiopia and points through and beyond. The Omani Sultanate at Zanzibar was of course one of the key trade centers throughout the 19th century, and I strongly believe the weapon forms, especially the kattara, found thier way into both Red Sea trade routes in the maritime sense, and into the Sudan, Sahara as well. Since this was typically not of course, a singular push of that entire distance, but the result of tribal interface and trade at given point, these weapons might well have come into Bedouin hands, or certainly influenced the tribesmen.

There is the mystery..at what point in North Africa, and by what tribal group, would this interpretive kattara have become incarnate? By appearance it seems somewhat Bedouin, the reptile skin suggests the Sudan, and the shape and style of the hilt suggests anything from Oman itself to Mali.
It should be noted that cylindrical hilts, however with a pommel, carrying kaskara form blades are also known in West Africa as far as Sierra Leone.

A very interesting piece, definitely has charisma!

All the best,
Jim

6th March 2008, 02:01 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Native North African sword Just received this sword. Looks like a native piece to me. Don't think tourists would be interested But I like these old "users" as well as the high end pieces I have, many of which were more ceremonial. I'd hazard a guess that this was carried by a common man, and it somehow has the feeling that it was important to him. No sand in it, however, I can see it next to some desert tribesman. 38.5 inches long, either with or without scabbard Since the blade tip sticks through the end. Cloth bindings over some kind of reptile skin. About the only decoration is the scabbard tip. Curious in that it is not sharp except for the first eight inches from the point. Impressions? Attached Images Last edited by Bill Marsh; 6th March 2008 at 02:55 PM.

6th March 2008, 02:26 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Looks to be a remarkably crude...and sadly...just plain ugly...Omani kattara. I betting this "wrap"(especially the hilt) is much later than the original fittings OR is the underlining to the original leather. Here is what it more likely orginally looked like.(Example from Artzi's site) Attached Images

6th March 2008, 02:22 PM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	An Omani kattara perhaps? I like it too!

6th March 2008, 03:05 PM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	....sorry....maybe better words would have been "stripped of it original lustre". I have seen several(at least 3) of these recovered with an equally unattractive rawhide type leather...the whole thing would be covered up, metal fittings and all...I never could quite figure out why. NO worries Bill....you have no monopoly on "ugly lovables"....I think we all have a few like that in our collections.

6th March 2008, 06:05 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	BEWARE!!! THIS IS UNDOUTABLY THE SWORD OF KARIS WHICH WAS STOLDEN FROM HIS TOMB IN EGYPT A HUNDRED YEARS AGO. HE HAS BEEN STUMBELING AROUND EVER SINCE LOOKING FOR HIS MUMMY'S SWORD WHEN KARIS WAS WRAPPED UP THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO THEY USED SOME OF THE SAME WRAP FOR HIS SWORD SO IT WOULD MATCH HIS OUTFIT. SO IF YOU HEAR A DRAGGING NOISE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND SEE A SHADOW WITH ONE ARM STUCK OUT IN FRONT RUN NOW YOU HAVE A STORY TO GO WITH THE NEAT SWORD

6th March 2008, 03:04 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I'm completely on board with Lee and Charles in that this seems likely to be Omani, and is most likely, as noted, a rugged piece carried by a tribesman. While this one certainly carries none of the attractiveness of the examples from Oman as seen on Artzis site, it is definitely loaded with desert charm and perhaps mystery. While this has appearances of the kattara, especially in the guardless hilt, and has a blade typical of kaskaras, seen also on the Omani kattaras, there are elements that do bring this to North Africa. The presence of reptile skin is one, but also the blade tip is sharpened to a spear type point, contrary to the somewhat spatulate tips on kattaras. The rugged cloth wrapping suggests many desert weapons carried by tribes of Bedouin . I have always considered the unusual guardless sabres of the Manding, found primarily in Mali, to be possibly associated to the Omani kattara at least nominally owing to the hilt. The trade routes of the Sahara clearly diffused both cultural elements as well as weaponry across North Africa, which clearly has included forms from as far as Zanzibar, through Ethiopia and points through and beyond. The Omani Sultanate at Zanzibar was of course one of the key trade centers throughout the 19th century, and I strongly believe the weapon forms, especially the kattara, found thier way into both Red Sea trade routes in the maritime sense, and into the Sudan, Sahara as well. Since this was typically not of course, a singular push of that entire distance, but the result of tribal interface and trade at given point, these weapons might well have come into Bedouin hands, or certainly influenced the tribesmen. There is the mystery..at what point in North Africa, and by what tribal group, would this interpretive kattara have become incarnate? By appearance it seems somewhat Bedouin, the reptile skin suggests the Sudan, and the shape and style of the hilt suggests anything from Oman itself to Mali. It should be noted that cylindrical hilts, however with a pommel, carrying kaskara form blades are also known in West Africa as far as Sierra Leone. A very interesting piece, definitely has charisma! All the best, Jim