comments on this barung lamenation?

Spunjer · 30th May 2005, 04:29 AM

thought i'd share pics of this beautiful barung. although the main reason why this barung got my attention was because of the shandigan blade, i had a pleasant surprise when i recieved it. the blade has a different lamenation from what i've seen on the few that i have and other examples i saw over the internet. where most lamenations i've seen reminds me of topographical map, this one, the lamenation lines runs in the same direction. the closest comparison that i saw was on artzi's website. he referred to it as 'layered welded blade'. this one seems to be pretty close to his example, where the lamenation lines running parallel to the blade. i wish i had a better camera to get the whole picture. the water lines would start from the where the handle ends and goes all the way tothe point of the blade. tom, or anybody else, could you please elaborate on this type of lamenation pattern? would this be an example of the scarf weld you mentioned?

as for the barung itself, it looks to be an older type, perhaps 19th century? the scabbard is ridgeless with real thin rattan bindings. the kakatua plume is small, almost none existent and it has a plain anadorned beak. tausug maybe?

the ferrule is silver but it's covered with patina. normally, i like to keep the ferrule shiny, but for some reason, the patina adds some serious character to the barung itself. the seller erroeously listed the ferrule binds as rattan but it's actually jute that one normally sees on barung, although this one is caked with patina. please enjoy the pics. comments are definitely welcome...

tom hyle · 30th May 2005, 07:39 PM

It looks like the body of the sword is built up of folded or layered metal with enough contrast between layers to make one suspect the contrast is deliberate; perhaps for appearance, or perhaps for a performance quality. There also appears to be an inlaid steel edge. If you look at the spine at the tip you may be able to see the edge bit pinched into a slot in the blade? The body metal is probably made by forge-welding a piece of steel to a piece of iron, then folding that (not very many times; the layers are large). The photos are nice, but they have their limitations; for instance the spine of the blade is often where you can see how the flatness of the layers run (ie. are the layers in the plain of the blade or are they perpendicular to it) I think you said they are parrallel, or in the same plain as the flatness of the blade. The shandigan profile makes it harder to tell, since the surface kind of swoops trough the layers. One occasionally sees Moro blades with "panel welding" like we'd expect on Yataghans or swerts/spathas (Oriental Arms had one or more example of this), but more commonly the layering runs in the plain of the blade. The whole issue of patterning on Moro blades seems to just be coming to light, and AFAIK it is still fairly mysterious. Every nation cannot be Japan and write the stuff down for us, and in all fairness, much of what they did has fallen to the difficulties of time, war, disaster, etc.....A scarf-welded edge bit would be one that was hammered on to one side of the blade, rather than being pinched into a centralized slot, and would be characterized by being visible for a very short distance on one side of the blade (only where the sharpening bevel comes down thru it), very narrow, as with an inlaid (pinched in, dogged in, qiangong) edge, but on the other flat it will be very wide because you see the whole piece of steel that is welded on. A place you can see this fairly readily on a modern commercially available product you can look at on the internet is Japanese fish knives. As with these it is usually encountered with a "chisel" or one-sided edge bevel.

Spunjer · 30th May 2005, 11:26 PM

thx tom. i can't get right lighting to show the blade's full glory. looking on the spine i could see, albeit barely, watermarks (with s) running parallel to it. it's more obvious towards the blade tip. i wouldn't even think about re-etching this; might end up screwing it altogether. your comment about the contrast being deliberate is interesting. i thought about it from that angle, too. from the appearance point of view, why then would the panday add a fairly plain handle? you'd think with a blade like this a junggayan type would be more appropriate. which leads me to your second guess: performance quality. if you notice the blade tip picture, it has some nicks on it. looks like it has seen some action before.
again, the watermarks really blows my mind. it looks as if someone painted flames racing on both sides of the blade; that's it; it looks like it's on fire. almost to the point were watermarks first, shandigan characteristic a close second. it's so beautiful. never seen anything like it.

Rick · 31st May 2005, 03:48 AM

Bizarro barong blade pattern .

12" very thick & heavy .
Can't figure out how this one was made ... Tom ?

Ian · 31st May 2005, 09:31 PM

Tom:

How does one distinguish an inserted edge on a laminated blade, from a tempered edge where the edge has been laminated (but not inserted)?

Do you follow my question? I'm asking about a blade that is first laminated and then tempered along the edge by (say) quenching -- how does one distinguish the appearance of that process from a blade that is laminated and has an inserted edge of hardened steel?

Ian.

Ian · 31st May 2005, 09:39 PM

Rick:

Seems to me that this one has been folded along the long axis of the blade (that is, along the length of the blade), then the blade was forged to its width and approximate shape, and then ground to its final form. What we are seeing, I think, is a series of layers that vary simply with the thickness of the blade, rather than a more complex pattern caused by twisting, etc. during the forging process.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Bizarro barong blade pattern .

12" very thick & heavy .
Can't figure out how this one was made ... Tom ?

Rick · 31st May 2005, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Rick:

Seems to me that this one has been folded along the long axis of the blade (that is, along the length of the blade), then the blade was forged to its width and approximate shape, and then ground to its final form. What we are seeing, I think, is a series of layers that vary simply with the thickness of the blade, rather than a more complex pattern caused by twisting, etc. during the forging process.

Ian.

Is this the same method of forging that was used to produce Spunjer's blade ?
It looks a little similar what with the layer lines looking like they're going to either side of the blade from a center line .

30th May 2005, 04:29 AM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	comments on this barung lamenation? thought i'd share pics of this beautiful barung. although the main reason why this barung got my attention was because of the shandigan blade, i had a pleasant surprise when i recieved it. the blade has a different lamenation from what i've seen on the few that i have and other examples i saw over the internet. where most lamenations i've seen reminds me of topographical map, this one, the lamenation lines runs in the same direction. the closest comparison that i saw was on artzi's website. he referred to it as 'layered welded blade'. this one seems to be pretty close to his example, where the lamenation lines running parallel to the blade. i wish i had a better camera to get the whole picture. the water lines would start from the where the handle ends and goes all the way tothe point of the blade. tom, or anybody else, could you please elaborate on this type of lamenation pattern? would this be an example of the scarf weld you mentioned? as for the barung itself, it looks to be an older type, perhaps 19th century? the scabbard is ridgeless with real thin rattan bindings. the kakatua plume is small, almost none existent and it has a plain anadorned beak. tausug maybe? the ferrule is silver but it's covered with patina. normally, i like to keep the ferrule shiny, but for some reason, the patina adds some serious character to the barung itself. the seller erroeously listed the ferrule binds as rattan but it's actually jute that one normally sees on barung, although this one is caked with patina. please enjoy the pics. comments are definitely welcome... Attached Images Last edited by Spunjer; 30th May 2005 at 12:39 PM.

31st May 2005, 03:48 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Another Bizarro barong blade pattern . 12" very thick & heavy . Can't figure out how this one was made ... Tom ? Attached Images

31st May 2005, 09:31 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Question for Tom Tom: How does one distinguish an inserted edge on a laminated blade, from a tempered edge where the edge has been laminated (but not inserted)? Do you follow my question? I'm asking about a blade that is first laminated and then tempered along the edge by (say) quenching -- how does one distinguish the appearance of that process from a blade that is laminated and has an inserted edge of hardened steel? Ian. Last edited by Ian; 31st May 2005 at 09:41 PM.

30th May 2005, 07:39 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It looks like the body of the sword is built up of folded or layered metal with enough contrast between layers to make one suspect the contrast is deliberate; perhaps for appearance, or perhaps for a performance quality. There also appears to be an inlaid steel edge. If you look at the spine at the tip you may be able to see the edge bit pinched into a slot in the blade? The body metal is probably made by forge-welding a piece of steel to a piece of iron, then folding that (not very many times; the layers are large). The photos are nice, but they have their limitations; for instance the spine of the blade is often where you can see how the flatness of the layers run (ie. are the layers in the plain of the blade or are they perpendicular to it) I think you said they are parrallel, or in the same plain as the flatness of the blade. The shandigan profile makes it harder to tell, since the surface kind of swoops trough the layers. One occasionally sees Moro blades with "panel welding" like we'd expect on Yataghans or swerts/spathas (Oriental Arms had one or more example of this), but more commonly the layering runs in the plain of the blade. The whole issue of patterning on Moro blades seems to just be coming to light, and AFAIK it is still fairly mysterious. Every nation cannot be Japan and write the stuff down for us, and in all fairness, much of what they did has fallen to the difficulties of time, war, disaster, etc.....A scarf-welded edge bit would be one that was hammered on to one side of the blade, rather than being pinched into a centralized slot, and would be characterized by being visible for a very short distance on one side of the blade (only where the sharpening bevel comes down thru it), very narrow, as with an inlaid (pinched in, dogged in, qiangong) edge, but on the other flat it will be very wide because you see the whole piece of steel that is welded on. A place you can see this fairly readily on a modern commercially available product you can look at on the internet is Japanese fish knives. As with these it is usually encountered with a "chisel" or one-sided edge bevel.

30th May 2005, 11:26 PM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thx tom. i can't get right lighting to show the blade's full glory. looking on the spine i could see, albeit barely, watermarks (with s) running parallel to it. it's more obvious towards the blade tip. i wouldn't even think about re-etching this; might end up screwing it altogether. your comment about the contrast being deliberate is interesting. i thought about it from that angle, too. from the appearance point of view, why then would the panday add a fairly plain handle? you'd think with a blade like this a junggayan type would be more appropriate. which leads me to your second guess: performance quality. if you notice the blade tip picture, it has some nicks on it. looks like it has seen some action before. again, the watermarks really blows my mind. it looks as if someone painted flames racing on both sides of the blade; that's it; it looks like it's on fire. almost to the point were watermarks first, shandigan characteristic a close second. it's so beautiful. never seen anything like it.