Indian 'Main Gauche' ???

katana · 2nd August 2008, 01:51 PM

Hi,
This recently finished on eBay.
A cut down sword or an unusual marriage, a Khanda hilt with a leaf shaped short blade.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=018

The rounded tip would not make a good stabbing weapon, the tip heavy blade looks better suited to slashing, but really is a little short. One possible use I can see, if this is genuine and not a ‘fantasy piece’ is that it would make a good ‘main gauche’ ….possibly for use with Rapier bladed Firangi ….like this one ..
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5577

Are there any other examples of this type ? Any other suggestions ? Thank you

Kind Regards David

Valjhun · 2nd August 2008, 05:32 PM

It seems like a composite piece to me.

Jim McDougall · 2nd August 2008, 06:57 PM

Now thats unusual David! I cannot say I've ever seen a khanda hilt in a dagger type configuration like this. It would indeed be tempting to think of this interesting example having been fashioned as the companion to the rapier bladed firangi previously discussed and used as a 'main gauche'.

While it seems it has been found that the Mahrattas were of course in certain degree influenced or at least impressed by Portuguese fashion and swordsmanship, I am not sure that they ever really adopted fencing technique to that level. It would be interesting to discover more on that. It would not be infeasible to imagine a Mahratta merchant or official imitating such European fashion.

A sword hilt fashioned into a knife seems to have been a one off occurence in numbers of cases. I have seen smallswords fashioned into knives this way as well as regulation military swords, usually left hilted as originally and the blade simply honed into knife shape. I think one of the most unusual instances I can think of were the M1913 Patton swords with huge steel hilts being made into combat knifes in WWII. Obviously, these examples have nothing to do with the knife we are discussing, but simply noted to illustrate instances using the concept.

Most interesting piece, and excellent example to review. It is not uncommon to refashion broken or damaged weapons considering thier value, and the concept obviously not isolated to certain periods or cultures.

The blade on this piece is intriguing as it has the distinct shape and central ridge reminding me of earlier Maasai seme' blades. I have often wondered if there could be any connection between those and earlier khanda blades. The trade between coastal western India and east Africa is of course well known, but there was notable presence of Indian workers in these regions of Africa during 19th century colonial presence. I recall once speaking with a lady who was clearly of Indian ancestry and being surprised when she told me she was from Kenya. She noted her family had been there for generations and that many Indian workers went there during those times.

Thank you for posting this David!

All the best,
Jim

katana · 2nd August 2008, 07:27 PM

Hi Valjhan,
could be a composite, but I'm not so sure. If it is, I believe that it was 'compiled' for a purpose.

Hi Jim

,
nice to hear from you. The hilt on this 'dagger' is very interesting notice the crossguard with the large finials mounted on the 'shell' guard'....double re-inforcement....that would not be necessary on a dagger. The blade is heavily tapered to the hilt....these two factors strongly suggest that this is some sort of 'parrying weapon'.

The blade would deflect (guide) an opponents blade towards the guard(s) the large finials preventing the blade 'sliding' off and around the 'shell' guard. The strength of the 'doubled up' guard would only make sense if it was known that this area would receive 'alot of attention'.

I have never seen a hilt like it before

Kind Regards David

ariel · 3rd August 2008, 12:03 AM

Isn't this type of handle suggestive of S. Indian origin?
Also, I have a feeling it used to have quillons.
Remake?

Andrew · 3rd August 2008, 03:16 AM

As always, it's difficult to speak with any certainty from pics on the 'net, but I highly doubt that blade is original to the hilt.

2nd August 2008, 01:51 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Indian 'Main Gauche' ??? Hi, This recently finished on eBay. A cut down sword or an unusual marriage, a Khanda hilt with a leaf shaped short blade. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=018 The rounded tip would not make a good stabbing weapon, the tip heavy blade looks better suited to slashing, but really is a little short. One possible use I can see, if this is genuine and not a ‘fantasy piece’ is that it would make a good ‘main gauche’ ….possibly for use with Rapier bladed Firangi ….like this one .. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5577 Are there any other examples of this type ? Any other suggestions ? Thank you Kind Regards David Attached Images

2nd August 2008, 07:27 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Valjhan, could be a composite, but I'm not so sure. If it is, I believe that it was 'compiled' for a purpose. Hi Jim , nice to hear from you. The hilt on this 'dagger' is very interesting notice the crossguard with the large finials mounted on the 'shell' guard'....double re-inforcement....that would not be necessary on a dagger. The blade is heavily tapered to the hilt....these two factors strongly suggest that this is some sort of 'parrying weapon'. The blade would deflect (guide) an opponents blade towards the guard(s) the large finials preventing the blade 'sliding' off and around the 'shell' guard. The strength of the 'doubled up' guard would only make sense if it was known that this area would receive 'alot of attention'. I have never seen a hilt like it before Kind Regards David Attached Images

2nd August 2008, 05:32 PM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	It seems like a composite piece to me.

2nd August 2008, 06:57 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Now thats unusual David! I cannot say I've ever seen a khanda hilt in a dagger type configuration like this. It would indeed be tempting to think of this interesting example having been fashioned as the companion to the rapier bladed firangi previously discussed and used as a 'main gauche'. While it seems it has been found that the Mahrattas were of course in certain degree influenced or at least impressed by Portuguese fashion and swordsmanship, I am not sure that they ever really adopted fencing technique to that level. It would be interesting to discover more on that. It would not be infeasible to imagine a Mahratta merchant or official imitating such European fashion. A sword hilt fashioned into a knife seems to have been a one off occurence in numbers of cases. I have seen smallswords fashioned into knives this way as well as regulation military swords, usually left hilted as originally and the blade simply honed into knife shape. I think one of the most unusual instances I can think of were the M1913 Patton swords with huge steel hilts being made into combat knifes in WWII. Obviously, these examples have nothing to do with the knife we are discussing, but simply noted to illustrate instances using the concept. Most interesting piece, and excellent example to review. It is not uncommon to refashion broken or damaged weapons considering thier value, and the concept obviously not isolated to certain periods or cultures. The blade on this piece is intriguing as it has the distinct shape and central ridge reminding me of earlier Maasai seme' blades. I have often wondered if there could be any connection between those and earlier khanda blades. The trade between coastal western India and east Africa is of course well known, but there was notable presence of Indian workers in these regions of Africa during 19th century colonial presence. I recall once speaking with a lady who was clearly of Indian ancestry and being surprised when she told me she was from Kenya. She noted her family had been there for generations and that many Indian workers went there during those times. Thank you for posting this David! All the best, Jim

3rd August 2008, 12:03 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Isn't this type of handle suggestive of S. Indian origin? Also, I have a feeling it used to have quillons. Remake?

3rd August 2008, 03:16 AM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	As always, it's difficult to speak with any certainty from pics on the 'net, but I highly doubt that blade is original to the hilt.