Wire bound dagger

graeme gt · 7th May 2009, 05:53 PM

Hi guys ,what do you make of this one 19th cent Shona ?

graeme gt · 7th May 2009, 06:08 PM

Sorry about pics will try harder .

colin henshaw · 7th May 2009, 08:59 PM

Hi

Yes, a 19th or early 20th century Shona knife "Bakatwa". Looks good.

Lew · 8th May 2009, 02:30 AM

Yes

A very nice Shona dagger. Here are my two for comparison.

Congrats

Tim Simmons · 8th May 2009, 10:32 AM

There is little doubt that many of these are Mashona and related people. Lately I have been thinking about the many styles of these knives. I wonder at the foot print of the style and influences. Shona may have become one of those catch all collector terms like Manding and many others. Compere this Rwandan sword to the knife. The blades are very different in shape, both have one side black with iron scale decoration, but look at the projection on the scabbard. This feature the same form and decoration only the Rwandan one there is the use of charing can be seen on Shi? weapons Eastern Congo. Could there be some origin linking areas from present day Zimbabwe through Zambia and Eastern Congo to Rwanda. Is this feature found in Tanzania? or is that were the seme takes over?

graeme gt · 8th May 2009, 10:39 AM

Thanks for your help guys ,nice knives Lou posting better pics .

colin henshaw · 8th May 2009, 08:30 PM

Good point about the Rwanda sword, Tim. The similarities in the scabbards and concept are clear.

The Zulu had a number of offshoots that went north, in the early 19th century, one getting as far as the southern edge of Lake Victoria seemingly. So its quite possible for the Shi sword/knife to derive from the Shona pattern. The Matabele, who used some Shona weapons, were of course originally derived from a Zulu migration.

Jim McDougall · 8th May 2009, 08:49 PM

Tim and Colin, thank you so much for adding such detail and observation in your discussion on these. It is wonderful when learned collectors who are focused on specific fields of weapons share such informed observations, as these threads become valuable resources for both present and future reference.
Essentially its like having the standard references, but with great annotation with updated and subsequent material added.

I agree with Tim, that often is the case when a term or specific tribal identification becomes used collectively in describing certain types and groups of weapons. I think that is what we are all about here, trying to better detail those broad identifications.

Thanks very much guys!

All the best,
Jim

7th May 2009, 05:53 PM	#1
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	Wire bound dagger Hi guys ,what do you make of this one 19th cent Shona ? Attached Images

8th May 2009, 02:30 AM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Yes A very nice Shona dagger. Here are my two for comparison. Congrats Attached Images

8th May 2009, 10:32 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	There is little doubt that many of these are Mashona and related people. Lately I have been thinking about the many styles of these knives. I wonder at the foot print of the style and influences. Shona may have become one of those catch all collector terms like Manding and many others. Compere this Rwandan sword to the knife. The blades are very different in shape, both have one side black with iron scale decoration, but look at the projection on the scabbard. This feature the same form and decoration only the Rwandan one there is the use of charing can be seen on Shi? weapons Eastern Congo. Could there be some origin linking areas from present day Zimbabwe through Zambia and Eastern Congo to Rwanda. Is this feature found in Tanzania? or is that were the seme takes over? Attached Images

8th May 2009, 10:39 AM	#6
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	Thanks for your help guys ,nice knives Lou posting better pics . Attached Images

7th May 2009, 06:08 PM	#2
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	Sorry about pics will try harder .

7th May 2009, 08:59 PM	#3
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Yes, a 19th or early 20th century Shona knife "Bakatwa". Looks good.

8th May 2009, 08:30 PM	#7
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Good point about the Rwanda sword, Tim. The similarities in the scabbards and concept are clear. The Zulu had a number of offshoots that went north, in the early 19th century, one getting as far as the southern edge of Lake Victoria seemingly. So its quite possible for the Shi sword/knife to derive from the Shona pattern. The Matabele, who used some Shona weapons, were of course originally derived from a Zulu migration.

8th May 2009, 08:49 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	Tim and Colin, thank you so much for adding such detail and observation in your discussion on these. It is wonderful when learned collectors who are focused on specific fields of weapons share such informed observations, as these threads become valuable resources for both present and future reference. Essentially its like having the standard references, but with great annotation with updated and subsequent material added. I agree with Tim, that often is the case when a term or specific tribal identification becomes used collectively in describing certain types and groups of weapons. I think that is what we are all about here, trying to better detail those broad identifications. Thanks very much guys! All the best, Jim