A blade for coments; old, early, or very early

fernando · 29th July 2010, 01:50 AM

The pictures are lousy, but i couldn't wait to show this one.
Found (coincidently?) near the ruimns of a Roman citania (settlement), in northern Portugal.
Blade 27,5 cms (7 3/4"), hilt (tang) 13,5 cms (5 1/4").
Quite a long tang; could it have a large pomel or hilt, to 'consume' some of its length?
The guy who acquired it thought he better clean it, as it was completely envolved in rust; but i reckon (and told him) he nearly reached the reasonable limit.
What do you guys think this is; something weapon like and seriously old ... even early?
Would better pictures be vital?
Fernando

.

Lee · 29th July 2010, 05:38 PM

The form is unfamiliar to me, so I have been leafing through the library, perhaps with some success. The full length tang, tang button and the blade widening in its distal half are all somewhat unusual features.

Dr. Hoffmeyer shows a similar form of blade in Arms & Armour in Spain on p. 85 of v. 1 that was found in the Visigothic necropolis at Simancas (now in a museum at Valladolid) and identifies these as a particular knife-dagger form worn by Hispano-Romans in the 4th to 5th centuries. She notes also that it "is difficult to find parallels to this type in other regions."

Considering the find place, I greatly favor this attribution over a worn down medieval working knife on which the long tang would be very much less expected - so, a very nice find indeed!

I have included the drawing from Dr. Hoffmeyer below:

Matchlock · 29th July 2010, 06:53 PM

Hi Fernando,

The little nail-head shaped pommel reminds me of Roman or Celtic swords and daggers. Apart from that I agree with Lee's arguments.

Best,
Michl

Matchlock · 29th July 2010, 07:53 PM

Hi 'Nando,

The small, nail-head shaped pommel reminds me of Celtic swords and daggers.

Best,
Michl

Lee · 29th July 2010, 11:02 PM

Continuing to ponder...

Unfortunately, the "belly" of the this blade is in the wrong place compared with Dr. Hoffmeyer's examples, which are also relatively wider, as may be noted in the superimposed image below.

I agree with Matchlock's impression of the tang button, I have exactly the same gestalt. This full tang with retaining button points either to something early (and possibly related to the knife daggers illustrated above) or something much more recent (18th century?). Considering the find place and the appearance of the corrosive attack upon the metal, I favor the late Roman attribution over a worn down peasant's working knife, but then, I am a romantic.

Though I continue to peruse, I fear that my library will fail to provide more examples, but that is the remaining task, to find if the Hispano-Roman form also includes examples from a known context with the "belly" more towards the tip...

fernando · 30th July 2010, 04:56 PM

It was great to hear your coments on this piece, Gentlemen.
I am much obliged for the sharing of Dr. Hoffmeyer's drawings, as well as your personal considerations, Lee.
I see that the identifying and dating of this knife is still to be narrowed to a determined typology and time span.
If i well understand, for the time being, i must accommodate its probabilities to a universe starting by a less probable Hispano-Roman knife dagger, followed by the more potential late Roman tool weapon, and ending in a much less viable but academicaly admitable XVII-XVIII century peasant's knife.
... This without excluding its Celtic touch pommel shape.
Curiously and, until further knowledge in the subject, it appears that all these peoples have been around the area, so we can not refine this knife ID with this method.
It seems as i will have to check on these civilizations and, perhaps, pay a visit to a nearby museum 'specialized' in early settlements artifacts, to check whether they recognize its 'advanced' belly shape.
Thank you once again.
Fernando

M ELEY · 1st August 2010, 08:14 AM

Awesome piece, Fernando! I envy your location, as you always seem to turn up such great examples (still enjoying that 4lb cannonball you sold me

). From Lee's pics, I think it still could be Hispano-Roman. The examples shown swell a little more towards the mid-point, but yours definately has the same wedge shape near the end of the blade. This isn't my area, so I'll ask a dumb question as to whether later Roman knives possessed this unique blade shape such as yours? In any case, a great piece worthy of any collection.

fernando · 1st August 2010, 08:33 PM

Thanks for the kind words, Captain Mark

.
Concerning the blade curve ...
I wouldn't have the necessary scholar background to use this as an actual reference, but i have been browsing on the famous Iberian Falcata, a sword used between V and I century BC, resembling the Etruscan Machaira called Kopis, or even the Nepalese Kukri, which has the blade 'belly' towards the tip, although in another shape context.
There is also a contemporaneous shorter version of the falcata, called Faca Afalcatada ... sort of "falcatized knife", also with the same blade swell.
Obviously the hilts of the falcata pattern have nothing to do with that of this knife. This is only to note that the curve in the blade front is not totally uncommon, while wondering if one descends from the other.
I assume i am far from being able to even try and attribute the origin of this dagger to one of the numerous peoples that have sequently inhabited these areas.
While Iberians were first around, with their falcatas, they tended to settle more to thre south and east from the settlement where this dagger was found, but falcatas were quite spread and some specimens were found not far from there.
However the Celts, who originated the Gaelic tribes, have surely inhabited this place. This could explain the tang pommel shape, as suggested by Matchlock.
Later this settlement, as many oters, was romanized, having the Romans fortified it with a triple wall.
One thing also taken for granted was the later occupation by the Germanic Visigods in this settlement, acording to their technique being noted in some ceramic findings, so i have read. These have replaced the Roman domination, having controlled Hispania between 418 and 711, date of the Muslim invasion.
Note that Hispania was the name given by the Romans to the whole Peninsula, Portugal included.
In my limited knowledge, i wouldn't know of Roman knives or daggers with a curved blade. Also apparently the way the tang is locked by a button doesn't appear to be Roman, but rather a Celtic detail, as per Michl's impression supported by Lee.
So assuming this kinfe/dagger falls into this time span and without evidence of a documented smilar pecimen, we may as weel take a pick

.

Fernando

.

29th July 2010, 01:50 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A blade for coments; old, early, or very early The pictures are lousy, but i couldn't wait to show this one. Found (coincidently?) near the ruimns of a Roman citania (settlement), in northern Portugal. Blade 27,5 cms (7 3/4"), hilt (tang) 13,5 cms (5 1/4"). Quite a long tang; could it have a large pomel or hilt, to 'consume' some of its length? The guy who acquired it thought he better clean it, as it was completely envolved in rust; but i reckon (and told him) he nearly reached the reasonable limit. What do you guys think this is; something weapon like and seriously old ... even early? Would better pictures be vital? Fernando . Attached Images

29th July 2010, 05:38 PM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 913	Hispano-Roman 4th to 5th century Knife-Dagger The form is unfamiliar to me, so I have been leafing through the library, perhaps with some success. The full length tang, tang button and the blade widening in its distal half are all somewhat unusual features. Dr. Hoffmeyer shows a similar form of blade in Arms & Armour in Spain on p. 85 of v. 1 that was found in the Visigothic necropolis at Simancas (now in a museum at Valladolid) and identifies these as a particular knife-dagger form worn by Hispano-Romans in the 4th to 5th centuries. She notes also that it "is difficult to find parallels to this type in other regions." Considering the find place, I greatly favor this attribution over a worn down medieval working knife on which the long tang would be very much less expected - so, a very nice find indeed! I have included the drawing from Dr. Hoffmeyer below: Attached Images

29th July 2010, 11:02 PM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 913	Continuing to ponder... Continuing to ponder... Unfortunately, the "belly" of the this blade is in the wrong place compared with Dr. Hoffmeyer's examples, which are also relatively wider, as may be noted in the superimposed image below. I agree with Matchlock's impression of the tang button, I have exactly the same gestalt. This full tang with retaining button points either to something early (and possibly related to the knife daggers illustrated above) or something much more recent (18th century?). Considering the find place and the appearance of the corrosive attack upon the metal, I favor the late Roman attribution over a worn down peasant's working knife, but then, I am a romantic. Though I continue to peruse, I fear that my library will fail to provide more examples, but that is the remaining task, to find if the Hispano-Roman form also includes examples from a known context with the "belly" more towards the tip... Attached Images

1st August 2010, 08:33 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks for the kind words, Captain Mark . Concerning the blade curve ... I wouldn't have the necessary scholar background to use this as an actual reference, but i have been browsing on the famous Iberian Falcata, a sword used between V and I century BC, resembling the Etruscan Machaira called Kopis, or even the Nepalese Kukri, which has the blade 'belly' towards the tip, although in another shape context. There is also a contemporaneous shorter version of the falcata, called Faca Afalcatada ... sort of "falcatized knife", also with the same blade swell. Obviously the hilts of the falcata pattern have nothing to do with that of this knife. This is only to note that the curve in the blade front is not totally uncommon, while wondering if one descends from the other. I assume i am far from being able to even try and attribute the origin of this dagger to one of the numerous peoples that have sequently inhabited these areas. While Iberians were first around, with their falcatas, they tended to settle more to thre south and east from the settlement where this dagger was found, but falcatas were quite spread and some specimens were found not far from there. However the Celts, who originated the Gaelic tribes, have surely inhabited this place. This could explain the tang pommel shape, as suggested by Matchlock. Later this settlement, as many oters, was romanized, having the Romans fortified it with a triple wall. One thing also taken for granted was the later occupation by the Germanic Visigods in this settlement, acording to their technique being noted in some ceramic findings, so i have read. These have replaced the Roman domination, having controlled Hispania between 418 and 711, date of the Muslim invasion. Note that Hispania was the name given by the Romans to the whole Peninsula, Portugal included. In my limited knowledge, i wouldn't know of Roman knives or daggers with a curved blade. Also apparently the way the tang is locked by a button doesn't appear to be Roman, but rather a Celtic detail, as per Michl's impression supported by Lee. So assuming this kinfe/dagger falls into this time span and without evidence of a documented smilar pecimen, we may as weel take a pick . Fernando . Attached Images

29th July 2010, 06:53 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Fernando, The little nail-head shaped pommel reminds me of Roman or Celtic swords and daggers. Apart from that I agree with Lee's arguments. Best, Michl

29th July 2010, 07:53 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, The small, nail-head shaped pommel reminds me of Celtic swords and daggers. Best, Michl

30th July 2010, 04:56 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	It was great to hear your coments on this piece, Gentlemen. I am much obliged for the sharing of Dr. Hoffmeyer's drawings, as well as your personal considerations, Lee. I see that the identifying and dating of this knife is still to be narrowed to a determined typology and time span. If i well understand, for the time being, i must accommodate its probabilities to a universe starting by a less probable Hispano-Roman knife dagger, followed by the more potential late Roman tool weapon, and ending in a much less viable but academicaly admitable XVII-XVIII century peasant's knife. ... This without excluding its Celtic touch pommel shape. Curiously and, until further knowledge in the subject, it appears that all these peoples have been around the area, so we can not refine this knife ID with this method. It seems as i will have to check on these civilizations and, perhaps, pay a visit to a nearby museum 'specialized' in early settlements artifacts, to check whether they recognize its 'advanced' belly shape. Thank you once again. Fernando

1st August 2010, 08:14 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,095	Awesome piece, Fernando! I envy your location, as you always seem to turn up such great examples (still enjoying that 4lb cannonball you sold me ). From Lee's pics, I think it still could be Hispano-Roman. The examples shown swell a little more towards the mid-point, but yours definately has the same wedge shape near the end of the blade. This isn't my area, so I'll ask a dumb question as to whether later Roman knives possessed this unique blade shape such as yours? In any case, a great piece worthy of any collection.