An extremely nice Indo-Persian Spear

katana · 15th September 2010, 06:26 PM

Hi,
this just finished on eBay.....unfortunately not mine...my larger bid failed to register

.

A very nice, chiselled decorated spear which appears to be wootz ...a vague pattern seems evident. I would be extremely interested in other opinions, I feel it sold well under price. Any ideas as to age, use (seller suggested Elephant spear) etc would be greatly appreciated. If a formite bought this and wants to start their own thread please let me know.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Kind Regards David

Tim Simmons · 15th September 2010, 08:25 PM

Looks European to me. 1890s onward.

Atlantia · 15th September 2010, 09:46 PM

Possible boar spear with bars removed?

mrwizard · 15th September 2010, 10:17 PM

Hello i also think this is a boar spear.

If you search for "Saufeder" (that's the german term) you will find a lot of examples.
btw. the typical Saufeder has no metal bars but a piece of antler fixated with a leather wrap just below the metal fitting.
At this position the wood of the presented spear seem to be roughened as to provide better grip for such a leather wrap.

Best Regards
Thilo

Norman McCormick · 15th September 2010, 11:15 PM

Hi,
A photo of similar for the record.
Regards,
Norman.
P.S. David, I still think a nice piece for the price, I would have been happy to put it on display.

katana · 16th September 2010, 12:02 AM

Thank you all for your replies

,

The chiselled designs originally, for me, appeared Indo-Persian ..or British Raj ....the trisula motif for instance. The scales on the socket could have been a reference to the Naga ....with the blade as its tongue. However, I see now that the trisula could also be seen as a 'fleur de lys'. But the overall arch shapes etc still have an Eastern or Arabic feel.

As I said it may be wootz as there were faint patterning marks.....if wootz it was still 'pointing' (

) to Indo-Persian (or Middle East origins).

The blade profile suggested, perhaps, a hunting use. (wide, sharp edged head used acurately, would 'cut' vital arteries easily).

I had considered a boar spear, and tiger and....but the lack of 'wings' / toggle didn't make sense. Incidently boar hunting was very popular in India....

"..........Pigsticking was a form of boar hunting done by individuals, or groups of spearmen on foot or on horseback using a specialized boar spear. The boar spear was sometimes fitted with a cross guard to stop the enraged animal driving its pierced body further down the shaft in order to attack its killer before dying.

Pig Sticking, an original equestrian sport for women in England. The riders attempt to spear a stuffed sack at full gallop.In India, pigsticking was popular among the Jatts, Gujjars, Rajputs, Sikhs, Maharajas, and with British officers during Victorian and Edwardian times.[1] According to the 1911 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica, it was encouraged by military authorities as good training because "a startled or angry wild boar is ... a desperate fighter [and therefore] the pig-sticker must possess a good eye, a steady hand, a firm seat, a cool head and a courageous heart.........."

However, if European, I am wondering whether it could be Spanish with 'Moorish' influences ?? I still do not see the designs as purely European.

Kind Regards David

PS Gene I did wonder whether the 'heat' marks on the side of the socket where the remains of 'bars' ....but had concluded that these were rivets heated and peened over, and then finished 'level' with the socket , but obviously I could easily be wrong.

I hope the pictures below show the patterning in the metal's surface that I first saw..

.

Atlantia · 16th September 2010, 12:45 AM

Hi David,
My first thought was German because of the shape and decoration.
That said, it could be from several countries, and I didn't realise that Boar hunting was popular (in this way) in india, so why not an Indian made example in the European style?
Anyway, I have no knowledge in that area to comment on so I'll have to keep reading while this mystery unfolds.
One thing though, I did also look at the filled holes on the upper part of the socket.
I did think that they are possibly the remains of some kind of projection.
Were they to secure the shaft, they seem rather close to what must be the end of the wood (inside the socket) and I would also have expected them to match the lower ones in shape and size.
Boar spears can have bars or flanges as we all know, perhaps these marks are from removal of something?
Best
Gene

Dom · 15th September 2010, 10:09 PM

Hello "katana"
I have trouble finding the elements that made you have to determine that
- it was a spear Indo-Persian (the scenery, not all)
- that the metal appears to be wootz (zoom 200% ... nothing)

with the best of good wishes,
I can not find any of the usual criteria

I conclude that you have done well to have "missed"
this compulsive purchase ...

now, at the question; from where, and datation ???

???

à +

Dom

15th September 2010, 06:26 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	An extremely nice Indo-Persian Spear ? Hi, this just finished on eBay.....unfortunately not mine...my larger bid failed to register . A very nice, chiselled decorated spear which appears to be wootz ...a vague pattern seems evident. I would be extremely interested in other opinions, I feel it sold well under price. Any ideas as to age, use (seller suggested Elephant spear) etc would be greatly appreciated. If a formite bought this and wants to start their own thread please let me know. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT Kind Regards David Attached Images Last edited by katana; 16th September 2010 at 12:09 AM.

15th September 2010, 11:15 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, A photo of similar for the record. Regards, Norman. P.S. David, I still think a nice piece for the price, I would have been happy to put it on display. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 15th September 2010 at 11:25 PM.

16th September 2010, 12:02 AM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you all for your replies , The chiselled designs originally, for me, appeared Indo-Persian ..or British Raj ....the trisula motif for instance. The scales on the socket could have been a reference to the Naga ....with the blade as its tongue. However, I see now that the trisula could also be seen as a 'fleur de lys'. But the overall arch shapes etc still have an Eastern or Arabic feel. As I said it may be wootz as there were faint patterning marks.....if wootz it was still 'pointing' ( ) to Indo-Persian (or Middle East origins). The blade profile suggested, perhaps, a hunting use. (wide, sharp edged head used acurately, would 'cut' vital arteries easily). I had considered a boar spear, and tiger and....but the lack of 'wings' / toggle didn't make sense. Incidently boar hunting was very popular in India.... "..........Pigsticking was a form of boar hunting done by individuals, or groups of spearmen on foot or on horseback using a specialized boar spear. The boar spear was sometimes fitted with a cross guard to stop the enraged animal driving its pierced body further down the shaft in order to attack its killer before dying. Pig Sticking, an original equestrian sport for women in England. The riders attempt to spear a stuffed sack at full gallop.In India, pigsticking was popular among the Jatts, Gujjars, Rajputs, Sikhs, Maharajas, and with British officers during Victorian and Edwardian times.[1] According to the 1911 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica, it was encouraged by military authorities as good training because "a startled or angry wild boar is ... a desperate fighter [and therefore] the pig-sticker must possess a good eye, a steady hand, a firm seat, a cool head and a courageous heart.........." However, if European, I am wondering whether it could be Spanish with 'Moorish' influences ?? I still do not see the designs as purely European. Kind Regards David PS Gene I did wonder whether the 'heat' marks on the side of the socket where the remains of 'bars' ....but had concluded that these were rivets heated and peened over, and then finished 'level' with the socket , but obviously I could easily be wrong. I hope the pictures below show the patterning in the metal's surface that I first saw.. . Attached Images Last edited by katana; 16th September 2010 at 12:15 AM.

15th September 2010, 08:25 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Looks European to me. 1890s onward.

15th September 2010, 09:46 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Possible boar spear with bars removed?

15th September 2010, 10:17 PM	#4
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Hello i also think this is a boar spear. If you search for "Saufeder" (that's the german term) you will find a lot of examples. btw. the typical Saufeder has no metal bars but a piece of antler fixated with a leather wrap just below the metal fitting. At this position the wood of the presented spear seem to be roughened as to provide better grip for such a leather wrap. Best Regards Thilo

16th September 2010, 12:45 AM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi David, My first thought was German because of the shape and decoration. That said, it could be from several countries, and I didn't realise that Boar hunting was popular (in this way) in india, so why not an Indian made example in the European style? Anyway, I have no knowledge in that area to comment on so I'll have to keep reading while this mystery unfolds. One thing though, I did also look at the filled holes on the upper part of the socket. I did think that they are possibly the remains of some kind of projection. Were they to secure the shaft, they seem rather close to what must be the end of the wood (inside the socket) and I would also have expected them to match the lower ones in shape and size. Boar spears can have bars or flanges as we all know, perhaps these marks are from removal of something? Best Gene

15th September 2010, 10:09 PM	#8
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hello "katana" I have trouble finding the elements that made you have to determine that - it was a spear Indo-Persian (the scenery, not all) - that the metal appears to be wootz (zoom 200% ... nothing) with the best of good wishes, I can not find any of the usual criteria I conclude that you have done well to have "missed" this compulsive purchase ... now, at the question; from where, and datation ??? ??? à + Dom