PSYCHOLOGICAL WEAPONS

VANDOO · 3rd January 2008, 02:09 AM

THESE TYPES OF WEAPONS HAVE BEEN USED SINCE ANCIENT TIMES. IT CAN STILL BE SEEN IN ITS MOST ANCIENT FORM AMONG THE GREAT APES, THEY SOMETIMES MAKE LOUD NOISES JUMP ABOUT AND TEAR THINGS UP, MAKE FACES AND SHOW THEIR TEETH. IN OUR PRIMATIVE ATTEMPTS TO INTIMIDATE OUR RIVALS OR RIVAL TRIBES WE DEVELOPED MANY DANCES WITH AGRESSIVE MOVEMENTS, LOUD SHOUTS,AND FIERCE FACES, THE MAORI OF NEW ZEALAND AND MANY OTHER SOCIETYS IN POLYNESIA HAD THESE AS A PRELUDE TO A FIGHT.
LARGE ARMYS POUNDING ON THEIR SHIELDS, POUNDING DRUMS, BLOWING HORNS AND SHOUTING OR SINGING WAS DONE FOR THE SAME PURPOSE.

THE NOISE SERVED THE PURPOSE TO MAKE YOUR ARMY SOUND BIGGER BEFORE IT WAS SEEN AS WELL AS TO SHOW YOUR ARMY WAS NOT AFRAID AND VERY FIERCE. THE SCOTTISH BAGPIPE WAS A WEAPON ORIGINALLY AND IF YOU HAD NEVER HEARD ONE WOULD INDEED BE SOMETHING TO CAUSE WORRY. THE BAGPIPES ALSO LET YOU KNOW WHO WAS COMING AND THAT YOU WERE IN FOR A REAL FIGHT. I FOUND AN INTERESTING PICTURE THAT BROUGHT ON THIS POST IS A BEDOUIN BAGPIPE FROM THE 1800'S, SOMETHING I HAD NOT HEARD OF BEFORE. ANY THOUGHTS ON THIS OR INFORMATION ON THE HISTORY OF THE PICTURED BAGPIPE WOULD BE INTERESTING.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd January 2008, 03:15 AM

Interesting stuff, Barry.

Those Maoris especially, and their hakas---although I did hear that the haka was originally performed as a tribute of thanks.

I was aware that during the highland uprising in the 1700's the pipes were classified as "an instrument of war", but I always thought that the highland pipes were primarily a peaceful instrument.

Could I ask where you learnt that the highland pipes were originally a weapon?

Thanks.

VANDOO · 3rd January 2008, 04:35 AM

MY UNDERSTANDING WAS THAT THE MAORI WOULD DO A HAKA WHEN VISITORS APPROACHED THEIR VILLAGE AND THEN END IT WITH A GREETING WHICH IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY WAS TO RUB NOSES. BOTH GROUPS PREFORMED THEIR HAKAS AND TAUNTED AND INSULTED THE OTHER SIDE BEFORE THE FIGHT BEGAN. THE TAUNTING IS COMMON IN MANY TRIBES THERE ARE SOME GOOD FILMS OF IT FROM NEW GUINEA AS THIS KIND OF WARFARE HAS HAPPENED VERY RECENTLY AND MAY STILL OCCUR AMOUNG SOME GROUPS. THE FILM BRAVEHEART SHOWS THE SCOTTS TAUNTING THEIR ENEMYS QUITE WELL. SOME OF THE PACIFIC CLUBS ARE VERY PALLIC IN NATURE AND ARE WAVED AROUND IN A VERY INSULTING MANNER WITH X RATED TAUNTS NO DOUBT. SOME OF THE GUNSTOCK VARIETYS WERE OFTEN PHALLIC AT THE HANDLE END AND WERE HELD UPSIDE DOWN BY THE SPIKE AT THE STRIKING END AND BRANDISHED AT THE ENEMY.

I CAN'T SAY AS I REMBER WHERE I READ THAT THE PIPES WERE CONSIDERED A WEAPON OF WAR BUT EARLY ON I THINK THEY WERE MOSTLY USED BY MILITARY MEN. THEY WERE USED ON THE MARCH INTO BATTLE JUST AS THE DRUM WAS AT THE TIME AND THEIR PURPOSE WAS NOT TO SOUND SIGNALS LIKE THE BUGLE AS FAR AS I KNOW. I WOULD THINK THEY HELPED PREPARE THE WARRIORS MENTALY WHILE MARCHING TO BATTLE AND THE STRANGE SOUND WOULD MAKE THE ENEMY A BIT NERVOUS. I SUPPOSE WE NEED A PIPER TO FILL US IN ON THE HISTORY OF THE BAGPIPE. I IMAGINE SOME TUNES WERE TO BOLSTER YOUR COURAGE AND INSPIRE CLAN SPIRIT WHILE OTHERS WERE DESIGNED TO SOUND WILD AND CRAZY KIND OF LIKE SOUNDING A CHARGE INTO BATTLE. I THINK SOME OF THEM TELL A STORY AND SOME ARE JUST TO GET THE BLOOD PUMPING. I JUST DON'T HAVE ENOUGH KNOWLEGE ON THE SUBJECT SO PERHAPS THERE WILL BE SOMEONE OUT THERE WHO CAN SET ME STRAIT IF I AM OFF. BUT FROM THE WAY THE PIPES SOUND AND THE REPUTATION OF THE SCOTS AS FIGHTING MEN, I CAN SEE AS TO HOW THEY WOULD HAVE A PSYCOLOGICAL EFFECT.

VANDOO · 3rd January 2008, 05:25 AM

HERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF THE CLUBS ONE IS A FIJI GUNSTOCK CLUB WITH THE SPIKE MENTIONED ABOVE. THE PICTURE OF A WARRIOR WITH A CLUB ,NEW HEBRIDES, THE LAST IS A PICTURE OF A CLUB FROM NEW CALIDONIA. IT IS INTERESTING THAT MOST OF THE MORE RECENT CLUBS FROM FIJI DO NOT FEATURE THE PHALLIC HANDLES.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd January 2008, 06:07 AM

Yeah Jim, they were instruments of war, and banned, but that was the 1700's.

Of course, I am more than willing to accept that they were also weapons of war---the noise they make is enough to send anybody running.

And while we're on the subject of running, you see an angry 6'5'', 300 pound Maori, you really don't need any haka to get you running in the opposite direction---at least I don't.Here in Australia Maoris and other Pacific Islanders, and men of Pacific Island descent make a very significant contribution to our national religion.Football--ie, rugby or one persuasion or another.

Jim McDougall · 3rd January 2008, 06:22 AM

Actually you're right Alan, they were banned in the 18th century, but began to be allowed once again when the British began forming regiments of Highlanders. The clans never went into battle without the pipes, and the pipers have stirred thier warriors into battle into modern times. There were over a thousand pipers killed in WWI, and even today, when a fallen warrior is put to rest, the pipes are there to send him home.

I will agree with you though on the Maoris and other South Seas groups. I recall younger years in California where certain conflicts arose, with most odds being reasonably level...except when Samoans showed up! Then it was time to quick exit!

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 3rd January 2008, 04:50 AM

Actually I had heard about this as well, that the Scottish bagpipes (which BTW were not invented there) were indeed considered instruments of war, and were banned along with the other formidable weapons of the Highlander.
While my own ancestry is of course Scottish, and admittedly diffused somewhat, I can tell you that a bit of Drambuie and some stirring bagpipe music brings forth that blood!
Actually that same effect was the effect the bagpipes brought out, and most certainly in monumentally more intense degree in those early Highlanders.
As Vandoo has noted, hearing those bagpipes certainly brought fear to those who knew what was to follow.

* on a lighter note I once saw a great cartoon with a Highlander playing his pipes and two young kids next to him, with one saying "well maybe if you stop squeezin' it mister, it'll stop screeching!".

On the note on the noise, in the great Noriega siege years ago, the Marines had him surrounded, and he was intent on fighting to the end......until they started the heavy metal over the loudspeakers..,,he caved in within hours!!!

Great post Vandoo!
I wasn't aware the Bedouins had these, but it seems bagpipes were known in the Middle East long before my Scottish forebearers had them.

All the best,
Jim

kahnjar1 · 3rd January 2008, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Interesting stuff, Barry.

Those Maoris especially, and their hakas---although I did hear that the haka was originally performed as a tribute of thanks.

I was aware that during the highland uprising in the 1700's the pipes were classified as "an instrument of war", but I always thought that the highland pipes were primarily a peaceful instrument.

Could I ask where you learnt that the highland pipes were originally a weapon?

Thanks.

As an inhabitant of NewZealand (home of the Maori), thought I had better get involved here. To save loads of copying on my part, and speculation on the part of Forum Members, check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haka (or just GOOGLE the word Haka) where various aspects of the Haka are described.
Stuart

VANDOO · 3rd January 2008, 07:48 PM

THANKS FOR THE LINK A LOT OF GOOD INFORMATION THERE. THE MANY DANCES OF POLYNESIA ARE VERY INTERESTING. THEY WERE AND STILL ARE A FORM OF COMUNICATION AND A WAY OF TRAINING THE YOUNG PEOPLE IN THE WAYS OF THE TRIBE. MANY OF THE MOVEMENTS IN SOME OF THE MENS DANCES TEACH FOOTWORK, AGILITY, STRIKES AND BLOCKS SOME REMIND ME OF THE KATA'S I PRACTICED IN MARTIAL ARTS. IN THE OLD DAYS A WELL DONE DANCE COULD COULD WIN YOU A MATE OR FAVOR FROM THE CHIEF AND PERHAPS GIVE YOU THE SKILL TO SURVIVE AND WIN A BATTLE.

WE OFTEN THINK A DANCE IS JUST A WAY TO HAVE FUN AND TODAY LARGELY IT IS BUT IN THE OLD DAYS IT PLAYED AN IMPORTANT PART IN THE SOCIETYS OF MAN THE WORLD OVER.

Mark · 4th January 2008, 03:26 PM

I have read that during the North African campaigns of WWII the Germans were in dread of the sound of Scottish bagpipes, as they signalled the presence of the Highland regiments, who they considered to be very fierce fighters (a pretty good estimation, I'd say). The Scots would even play the pipes at the front during the night for their psycological effect. Nothing like hearing the sound of your worst enemy to keep you up at night and/or give you nightmares.

David · 4th January 2008, 07:13 PM

Here's a short clip of Haka performed in a non-sports related fashion. There is also some good Haka in the film Whale Rider.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-lrE...eature=related
And then i also found this rare footage of a seldom seen Maori clan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oulQwIP9VQQ

Jim McDougall · 4th January 2008, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

I have read that during the North African campaigns of WWII the Germans were in dread of the sound of Scottish bagpipes, as they signalled the presence of the Highland regiments, who they considered to be very fierce fighters (a pretty good estimation, I'd say). The Scots would even play the pipes at the front during the night for their psycological effect. Nothing like hearing the sound of your worst enemy to keep you up at night and/or give you nightmares.

Thank you so much for those words Mark. Absolutely music to my ears!

As Alan has noted, the pipes can present most unnerving noise to many, especially with that connotation, but they can truly be beautiful in many arrangements, especially in stirring ceremonies. I will never forget seeing "The Black Watch" and it was in the early 1980's just after the tragic loss of U.S. Marines in Lebanon, there was a tribute that was indescribable.

My uncle was in N.Africa in WWII, actually with the Rangers Battalion, in Colonel Darby's Rangers.

Alan,
Thank you for the info on the Moriori, absolutely fascinating, and your point on the significance is extremely well placed.

All very best regards,
Jim

3rd January 2008, 02:09 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	PSYCHOLOGICAL WEAPONS THESE TYPES OF WEAPONS HAVE BEEN USED SINCE ANCIENT TIMES. IT CAN STILL BE SEEN IN ITS MOST ANCIENT FORM AMONG THE GREAT APES, THEY SOMETIMES MAKE LOUD NOISES JUMP ABOUT AND TEAR THINGS UP, MAKE FACES AND SHOW THEIR TEETH. IN OUR PRIMATIVE ATTEMPTS TO INTIMIDATE OUR RIVALS OR RIVAL TRIBES WE DEVELOPED MANY DANCES WITH AGRESSIVE MOVEMENTS, LOUD SHOUTS,AND FIERCE FACES, THE MAORI OF NEW ZEALAND AND MANY OTHER SOCIETYS IN POLYNESIA HAD THESE AS A PRELUDE TO A FIGHT. LARGE ARMYS POUNDING ON THEIR SHIELDS, POUNDING DRUMS, BLOWING HORNS AND SHOUTING OR SINGING WAS DONE FOR THE SAME PURPOSE. THE NOISE SERVED THE PURPOSE TO MAKE YOUR ARMY SOUND BIGGER BEFORE IT WAS SEEN AS WELL AS TO SHOW YOUR ARMY WAS NOT AFRAID AND VERY FIERCE. THE SCOTTISH BAGPIPE WAS A WEAPON ORIGINALLY AND IF YOU HAD NEVER HEARD ONE WOULD INDEED BE SOMETHING TO CAUSE WORRY. THE BAGPIPES ALSO LET YOU KNOW WHO WAS COMING AND THAT YOU WERE IN FOR A REAL FIGHT. I FOUND AN INTERESTING PICTURE THAT BROUGHT ON THIS POST IS A BEDOUIN BAGPIPE FROM THE 1800'S, SOMETHING I HAD NOT HEARD OF BEFORE. ANY THOUGHTS ON THIS OR INFORMATION ON THE HISTORY OF THE PICTURED BAGPIPE WOULD BE INTERESTING. Attached Images

3rd January 2008, 05:25 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF THE CLUBS ONE IS A FIJI GUNSTOCK CLUB WITH THE SPIKE MENTIONED ABOVE. THE PICTURE OF A WARRIOR WITH A CLUB ,NEW HEBRIDES, THE LAST IS A PICTURE OF A CLUB FROM NEW CALIDONIA. IT IS INTERESTING THAT MOST OF THE MORE RECENT CLUBS FROM FIJI DO NOT FEATURE THE PHALLIC HANDLES. Attached Images

3rd January 2008, 03:15 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Interesting stuff, Barry. Those Maoris especially, and their hakas---although I did hear that the haka was originally performed as a tribute of thanks. I was aware that during the highland uprising in the 1700's the pipes were classified as "an instrument of war", but I always thought that the highland pipes were primarily a peaceful instrument. Could I ask where you learnt that the highland pipes were originally a weapon? Thanks.

3rd January 2008, 04:35 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MY UNDERSTANDING WAS THAT THE MAORI WOULD DO A HAKA WHEN VISITORS APPROACHED THEIR VILLAGE AND THEN END IT WITH A GREETING WHICH IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY WAS TO RUB NOSES. BOTH GROUPS PREFORMED THEIR HAKAS AND TAUNTED AND INSULTED THE OTHER SIDE BEFORE THE FIGHT BEGAN. THE TAUNTING IS COMMON IN MANY TRIBES THERE ARE SOME GOOD FILMS OF IT FROM NEW GUINEA AS THIS KIND OF WARFARE HAS HAPPENED VERY RECENTLY AND MAY STILL OCCUR AMOUNG SOME GROUPS. THE FILM BRAVEHEART SHOWS THE SCOTTS TAUNTING THEIR ENEMYS QUITE WELL. SOME OF THE PACIFIC CLUBS ARE VERY PALLIC IN NATURE AND ARE WAVED AROUND IN A VERY INSULTING MANNER WITH X RATED TAUNTS NO DOUBT. SOME OF THE GUNSTOCK VARIETYS WERE OFTEN PHALLIC AT THE HANDLE END AND WERE HELD UPSIDE DOWN BY THE SPIKE AT THE STRIKING END AND BRANDISHED AT THE ENEMY. I CAN'T SAY AS I REMBER WHERE I READ THAT THE PIPES WERE CONSIDERED A WEAPON OF WAR BUT EARLY ON I THINK THEY WERE MOSTLY USED BY MILITARY MEN. THEY WERE USED ON THE MARCH INTO BATTLE JUST AS THE DRUM WAS AT THE TIME AND THEIR PURPOSE WAS NOT TO SOUND SIGNALS LIKE THE BUGLE AS FAR AS I KNOW. I WOULD THINK THEY HELPED PREPARE THE WARRIORS MENTALY WHILE MARCHING TO BATTLE AND THE STRANGE SOUND WOULD MAKE THE ENEMY A BIT NERVOUS. I SUPPOSE WE NEED A PIPER TO FILL US IN ON THE HISTORY OF THE BAGPIPE. I IMAGINE SOME TUNES WERE TO BOLSTER YOUR COURAGE AND INSPIRE CLAN SPIRIT WHILE OTHERS WERE DESIGNED TO SOUND WILD AND CRAZY KIND OF LIKE SOUNDING A CHARGE INTO BATTLE. I THINK SOME OF THEM TELL A STORY AND SOME ARE JUST TO GET THE BLOOD PUMPING. I JUST DON'T HAVE ENOUGH KNOWLEGE ON THE SUBJECT SO PERHAPS THERE WILL BE SOMEONE OUT THERE WHO CAN SET ME STRAIT IF I AM OFF. BUT FROM THE WAY THE PIPES SOUND AND THE REPUTATION OF THE SCOTS AS FIGHTING MEN, I CAN SEE AS TO HOW THEY WOULD HAVE A PSYCOLOGICAL EFFECT.

3rd January 2008, 06:07 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yeah Jim, they were instruments of war, and banned, but that was the 1700's. Of course, I am more than willing to accept that they were also weapons of war---the noise they make is enough to send anybody running. And while we're on the subject of running, you see an angry 6'5'', 300 pound Maori, you really don't need any haka to get you running in the opposite direction---at least I don't.Here in Australia Maoris and other Pacific Islanders, and men of Pacific Island descent make a very significant contribution to our national religion.Football--ie, rugby or one persuasion or another.

3rd January 2008, 06:22 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Actually you're right Alan, they were banned in the 18th century, but began to be allowed once again when the British began forming regiments of Highlanders. The clans never went into battle without the pipes, and the pipers have stirred thier warriors into battle into modern times. There were over a thousand pipers killed in WWI, and even today, when a fallen warrior is put to rest, the pipes are there to send him home. I will agree with you though on the Maoris and other South Seas groups. I recall younger years in California where certain conflicts arose, with most odds being reasonably level...except when Samoans showed up! Then it was time to quick exit! All best regards, Jim

3rd January 2008, 04:50 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Actually I had heard about this as well, that the Scottish bagpipes (which BTW were not invented there) were indeed considered instruments of war, and were banned along with the other formidable weapons of the Highlander. While my own ancestry is of course Scottish, and admittedly diffused somewhat, I can tell you that a bit of Drambuie and some stirring bagpipe music brings forth that blood! Actually that same effect was the effect the bagpipes brought out, and most certainly in monumentally more intense degree in those early Highlanders. As Vandoo has noted, hearing those bagpipes certainly brought fear to those who knew what was to follow. * on a lighter note I once saw a great cartoon with a Highlander playing his pipes and two young kids next to him, with one saying "well maybe if you stop squeezin' it mister, it'll stop screeching!". On the note on the noise, in the great Noriega siege years ago, the Marines had him surrounded, and he was intent on fighting to the end......until they started the heavy metal over the loudspeakers..,,he caved in within hours!!! Great post Vandoo! I wasn't aware the Bedouins had these, but it seems bagpipes were known in the Middle East long before my Scottish forebearers had them. All the best, Jim

3rd January 2008, 07:48 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THANKS FOR THE LINK A LOT OF GOOD INFORMATION THERE. THE MANY DANCES OF POLYNESIA ARE VERY INTERESTING. THEY WERE AND STILL ARE A FORM OF COMUNICATION AND A WAY OF TRAINING THE YOUNG PEOPLE IN THE WAYS OF THE TRIBE. MANY OF THE MOVEMENTS IN SOME OF THE MENS DANCES TEACH FOOTWORK, AGILITY, STRIKES AND BLOCKS SOME REMIND ME OF THE KATA'S I PRACTICED IN MARTIAL ARTS. IN THE OLD DAYS A WELL DONE DANCE COULD COULD WIN YOU A MATE OR FAVOR FROM THE CHIEF AND PERHAPS GIVE YOU THE SKILL TO SURVIVE AND WIN A BATTLE. WE OFTEN THINK A DANCE IS JUST A WAY TO HAVE FUN AND TODAY LARGELY IT IS BUT IN THE OLD DAYS IT PLAYED AN IMPORTANT PART IN THE SOCIETYS OF MAN THE WORLD OVER.

4th January 2008, 03:26 PM	#10
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I have read that during the North African campaigns of WWII the Germans were in dread of the sound of Scottish bagpipes, as they signalled the presence of the Highland regiments, who they considered to be very fierce fighters (a pretty good estimation, I'd say). The Scots would even play the pipes at the front during the night for their psycological effect. Nothing like hearing the sound of your worst enemy to keep you up at night and/or give you nightmares.

4th January 2008, 07:13 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Here's a short clip of Haka performed in a non-sports related fashion. There is also some good Haka in the film Whale Rider. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-lrE...eature=related And then i also found this rare footage of a seldom seen Maori clan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oulQwIP9VQQ