PBX

[Kulino]

Dear all,
I would like to share with you a keris which is dear to me. It is a type of sadjen but a special one. Large and the handle is different. The sheat shows a couple of lacquered seals showing the coat of arms of PBX. It used to be completely covered with these seals. Traces of them can still be seen all along the sheat, front and back. I examined the blade itself and found that it used to be completely covered with gold. Traces of that can be seen all along the blade, front and back, including the handle. I believe this to be a keris from kraton Surakarta, maybe even from the beloved susuhunan Paku Buwana himself or at least from of his inner circle. It is not a loud keris, not showing anything that enhances its status. It has not been cleaned nor patinated, just ages of applied oil. This confirms my information that keris from the kraton itself do not depend on a yearly cleaning. No idea about its age. It most certainly is much older than the PB X era. It takes a long time to loose al that gold from the metal skin.....

[David]

Interesting observations. I cannot say that i see the same things you do. Firstly, while i have seen lacquered pendoks and mendaks i have never seen lacquer placed over wood like this. I am not convinced the material is lacquer and you will certainly need to provide some much closer images to allow us to see the PBX coat of arms. I am also afraid that i can see no traces of gold on this blade or handle. I am not saying none exist, but it would seem unusual to me to find kinatah placed on a keris sajen, which is the type of keris this is, sajen referring to "offering".
I have attached an image of the "Radyalaksana" that PBX designed for his reign. However, even if this is what you are seeing on the red material that is in no way proof that this was once held in the Kraton. I have seen this seal embossed on the backs of many pendoks over the years and none of those keris ever saw the inside of the Kraton.
But perhaps if you could show us more images of the blade and close-ups of the seal we can come to some better conclusion.

[Kulino]

Dear David,
Tahnk you for your kind reply.
Trust me, the seals are laquer. The crest is not the one you show but the two letters PB with a Roman number behind it. The crest you show can be found on alesan keris. This is the imprint of a seal. Parts of the same imprint and the visible fragments of the Roman number can be found on the other seals. They look worn. The fragments combined seem to form the X. The two letters ( PB same lettertype) also appear on wayang kulit with natural pigments, coming from the kraton.
The wooden sheat is painted black as if it were laquered black. The keris has provenance. The hulu appears in the book Keris-Griffe by Martin Kerner, pag.22.
The gold traces are genuine. I tried to photograph them but you need a macro lens to capture it properly. Even in the eye sockets of the hulu there are traces of gold. I agree it is very unusual to find gold traces the way they are to be found on this blade. That is why I turn to this community.

[Kulino]

Forgot to include the pictures. Sorry.

[A. G. Maisey]

I've worked the sealing wax a bit and I think I can see a "PB" on the top daub of wax.

The gandar does appear to have been lacquered, something that is not all that unusual in older dress.

But all of that doesn't give any evidence at all of previous ownership.

The keris itself is a very superior example of the type. Nice!

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I've worked the sealing wax a bit and I think I can see a "PB" on the top daub of wax.

The gandar does appear to have been lacquered, something that is not all that unusual in older dress.

But all of that doesn't give any evidence at all of previous ownership.

The keris itself is a very superior example of the type. Nice!

Thanks Alan, i do believe i can now see at least PB and part of a crown. But yes, still no proof of ownership.
I do agree that this looks like a very nice sajen which is why i hope Kulino might show us better images of the blade.
Have you seen keris sajen with kinatah before. That would be a new one for me.

[Kulino]

Dear David, Mr Maisey,
Again thank you for your kind opinion. I agree, seals are no proof of ownership. I wonder why would anyone bother to put such an amount of seals on the keris dress? Also, I seem to miss a couple of pictures which I tried to upload. I'll try again.
On one of these pictures you can see the gold traces embedded but shining bright through the thick oily skin.
Again, the story I was told, is that pusaka belonging the kraton itself were not cleaned. This has to do with the order in creation. Keris are Irogdat. Humans are Kodrat. Kodrat do not serve Irogdat.
When humans pay hommage to keris they reverse the order of creation. This is ok for the world outside, but inside the kraton this rule was followed. It would empower the pusaka from the kraton. No irogdat from outside the kraton would be capable to stand against the pure kodrat- irogdat combination from inside the kraton.

[A. G. Maisey]

Nope, never seen a keris sajen with kinatah. I do not understand why a keris sajen would be given kinatah. Its not as if you wear them.

Still, anything is possible.

Just a thought:- have the "gold" flecks been tested, or do they just look like gold?

Had a look at Kerner, he actually says its from the Solo Karaton, and he brackets the word (Furstenhof) which I guess is some sort of reference, but I don't know what. I don't read German. Any ideas who or what Furstenhof is?

Google reckons "furstenhof" means "a princely court", which fits, but is inaccurate, as the Surakarta Karaton is not the court of a prince, it is the dwelling place of a Ratu = king, queen, monarch.

Can't help but wonder where this keris did actually come from. Things bought out of the Karaton by outsiders very seldom actually come from the karaton.

[Kulino]

Gold specs are tiny and all over the skin of the keris. As I already wrote, even in the eye sockets. When the sun shines on the wingkinan tiny highlights on the whole metal surface. Since they shine so bright and seem to be on the metal skin and not part of it I have no idea what else they could be. I know of metal with a scattered gold dust look, but this is nothing like it. It looks very much like gold traces I found on an old Rajah Kikik's kinatah. Most certainly not like copper, messing of any other besi kuning. They do not shine bright but stand out just because of the colour of the metal. These traces highlight.

[Kulino]

Fürstenhof means royal court. Eventhough I knew Martin Kerner (I helped him out to translate some literature from dutch into german) I have reservations towards his research conclusions. But he knew the provenance of his keris collection most of the times. I believe mr Maisey and Martin Kerner were in contact also?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Had a look at Kerner, he actually says its from the Solo Karaton, and he brackets the word (Furstenhof) which I guess is some sort of reference, but I don't know what. I don't read German. Any ideas who or what Furstenhof is?

Google reckons "furstenhof" means "a princely court", which fits, but is inaccurate, as the Surakarta Karaton is not the court of a prince, it is the dwelling place of a Ratu = king, queen, monarch.

Can't help but wonder where this keris did actually come from. Things bought out of the Karaton by outsiders very seldom actually come from the karaton.

Hallo Alan,

I don't have the context but it's nearly sure that he mean with "fürstenhof" simple the ceraton. "Fürst" is a german title of nobility and don't mean "prince". That's the traps of translation in fine!
Regards,
Detlef

[Kulino]

While I'm at it, your comments on this keris. Thin, light, smooth skin, probably wesi sembodja. Shows all signs of a proper keris kuno, Majapahit keris, maybe Sendang Sedayu. Pamor tiga sakler or some ilen variant. It is with me for years, checked all literature but can't find anything. I seem to recall to have seen something like it in Pirngadi or Groneman but....

[kai]

Hello Kulino,

Welcome to the actively participating forumites! (Sorry for coming in on this thread a bit late.)

I would like to share with you a keris which is dear to me. It is a type of sadjen but a special one. Large and the handle is different.

Thanks for showing this really nice keris sajen - I do like it! Could you please show a pic of the hilt from the side? It does look like only the torso is being shown here (with the usually bent legs being omitted), doesn't it?

Any comments from Theo Alkema on this piece?

The sheat shows a couple of lacquered seals showing the coat of arms of PBX. It used to be completely covered with these seals. Traces of them can still be seen all along the sheat, front and back.

Are you sure that the red dots along the scabbard are really sealing wax rather than older paint? I'd have guessed that the black and red was old and worn sunggingan and that the seal got placed on the scabbard much later, possibly to "prove" the keraton connection (their placement at the back of the scabbard would not only pretty much obligate any wear of the keris (for which it was never meant) but also make hanging or storing it more difficult. It does look as if the lacquered surface next to the seals got affected by the heat.

I examined the blade itself and found that it used to be completely covered with gold. Traces of that can be seen all along the blade, front and back, including the handle.
No idea about its age. It most certainly is much older than the PB X era. It takes a long time to loose al that gold from the metal skin.....

This certainly does not look like the usual kinatah. From the close-up it seems that the little specks of gold sit in tiny crevices or on top of the patina. This would suggest it being added much later; fully covering a blade with leaf gold is fairly easy and not terribly expensive - it also rubs off quite fast. Without any sound provenance to rely on, it will be very tough to establish the real age of this keris or when (or for what reason) the gold got applied.

OTOH, I don't think this really matters: It is a really good example of its type coming with an old, interesting scabbard - congrats!

Regards,
Kai

[Kulino]

Hi Kai,
I'm sure the traces are red lacquer. It blew me away too. Why this abundance???? What was there to prove or to claim? This is surely not a keris to wear or to show. I know, a keris sajen doesn’t come with kinatah. I noticed it only when I examined it outside and the sunlight made a couple of gold specs pop out. Then, when I checked it with magnifier glasses, the specs were all over the blade underneath the oil residue. Gold once covered the whole blade. The oil came later.
The layers which cover the blade consists of oil residue. The only way to get this, I know, is to oil it without cleaning of the earlier residue. Why was it left? If it was such an important keris, why wasn’t cleaned as ‘normal’ keris would have been? I can’t find any trace of pamor. Just sheats of metal covered with this residue through which the gold spec shine. Puzzeling….
Then again, why painting the scabbard black as if it had a pendok? The black is certainly a black lacquer resembling what I find on separately lacquered pendok. The meaning of black lacquer as far as I know, has to do with kraton pedigree. On the one hand humble and magical (sajen), on the other hand someone took great effort to mark it as important (Seals with PBX and black lacquered wooden sheet.) The keris fits beautifully in the scabbard, they are a match. The wood pamor showing a sumber. This was deliberatly chosen. It shows like it is an old scabbard fitting to an old keris but in a wonderful state. It must have been cared for, for a long time, otherwise it would already have rotted away or severely damaged. All contradictions and forming an enigma. The only answer I have is in the posts. I’m not sure which Allen’s thought are in this riddle.
I’m pretty sure Theo hasn’t seen this keris. The last time I met him in person must have been ten years ago or more. It was at his home, I believe when Dietrich Dresscher was there. The only one who knew where this keris came from was Martin Kerner. I've added a couple of pictures. No bended legs. Strange again.

[A. G. Maisey]

Well Kulino, you clearly don't need to polish up your basic Javanese, I obviously misread what the peculiar words indicated.

Please accept my apologies.

You're right about the difficulty with translations, sometimes its just not possible to translate an idea into a different language, because the original idea does not exist in that other language. I'm not a linguist, so I don't know how the professionals approach this problem, but what I do is to try to understand the sense and feeling of the idea in Language 1 and then bring that sense and feeling into Language 2, even if the words used don't necessary match a direct translation.

But actually, I've never bothered with going back to the original manuscripts of things that have already been translated. There is only so much time in any one person's lifetime, I use the efforts of others to give me more time. This means that wherever possible I use existing translations into either English or Bahasa Indonesia.

Several works that I have for which no translations had been done, I paid to have translated by old generation Javanese people who could still read hanacaraka fluently. The last of these I had done during the 1990's, and even at that time it was very, very difficult to find anybody who could read the old script well. My original translators were a relative who made wayang puppets, he passed away in about 1983, after him a relative who was a school teacher, she passed away in the late 1980's, then I used a neighbour who was a retired public servant, he went blind in about 1993. After that I could not find anybody who was a truly competent reader of hanacaraka. I've got plenty of relatives who know the basics, but translation of any extended work is well and truly beyond them.

However, be all that as it may. We still have a problem with:-

Winginkinan punika ingkang sae

is "winginkinan" a typo, or have you given "wingkingan" (your "wingkinan") the "in" infix of Old Javanese?

In any case, this is krama that we're looking at, so "wingkingan" should perhaps be read as if it were "buri", which could mean:- later, after a while, past, then, or last, depending on context.


In respect of the "wingkinan" spelling of "wingkingan":- are you using a roman text and does the text you are working from use a cedilla under the "n"? If so, this indicates a spoken sound "ng".

[A. G. Maisey]

In respect of black kemalo on a gandar.

Black can be used by all ranks within the Karaton hierarchy, and it can also be used by the general public.

It is the correct colour kemalo for wear at a funeral.

However, that does not necessarily mean that it was given black kemalo for wear at a funeral, only the person who had the black kemalo applied could tell you the reason he had it done, but a well mannered person would not ask him why, and if he was asked he probably would not tell you the true reason in any case.

[Kulino]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Well Kulino, you clearly don't need to polish up your basic Javanese, I obviously misread what the peculiar words indicated.

Please accept my apologies.

You're right about the difficulty with translations, sometimes its just not possible to translate an idea into a different language, because the original idea does not exist in that other language. I'm not a linguist, so I don't know how the professionals approach this problem, but what I do is to try to understand the sense and feeling of the idea in Language 1 and then bring that sense and feeling into Language 2, even if the words used don't necessary match a direct translation.

But actually, I've never bothered with going back to the original manuscripts of things that have already been translated. There is only so much time in any one person's lifetime, I use the efforts of others to give me more time. This means that wherever possible I use existing translations into either English or Bahasa Indonesia.

Several works that I have for which no translations had been done, I paid to have translated by old generation Javanese people who could still read hanacaraka fluently. The last of these I had done during the 1990's, and even at that time it was very, very difficult to find anybody who could read the old script well. My original translators were a relative who made wayang puppets, he passed away in about 1983, after him a relative who was a school teacher, she passed away in the late 1980's, then I used a neighbour who was a retired public servant, he went blind in about 1993. After that I could not find anybody who was a truly competent reader of hanacaraka. I've got plenty of relatives who know the basics, but translation of any extended work is well and truly beyond them.

However, be all that as it may. We still have a problem with:-

Winginkinan punika ingkang sae

is "winginkinan" a typo, or have you given "wingkingan" (your "wingkinan") the "in" infix of Old Javanese?

In any case, this is krama that we're looking at, so "wingkingan" should perhaps be read as if it were "buri", which could mean:- later, after a while, past, then, or last, depending on context.


In respect of the "wingkinan" spelling of "wingkingan":- are you using a roman text and does the text you are working from use a cedilla under the "n"? If so, this indicates a spoken sound "ng".

Dear Alan,
You are right. it was a typo. And in this case I used the roman text. I have to admit, my own Javanese is rudimentary. I made use of Javanese friends and
friends who have studied Indonesian language and culture at Leiden university with prof. Teeuw.
My Solonese teacher and Javanese friend who were fluent also passed away. Luckily we' ve managed to translate the metal varieties in Dutch.
It has not been published. This also goes for the explained hundreds of pamor and pamor details. I promised my Solonese teacher to publish but was more or less forbidden to do so by my current Yogja teacher. As council to the Sultan, I presume he knows best. Too sensitive he said. I keep it for the family to study and learn.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Kulino, typos can always happen.

Re your translation of "metal varieties", I assume you mean the various types of Wesi Aji?

In 1934 in Solo, "De Bliksem" published a little guide named "Wesiadji", that was a part of a much larger work which dealt with many aspects of the keris. "Wesiadji" lists the various types of iron and how to identify them, also, what offerings are appropriate for those types of iron, and what types of iron are good or bad. This purportedly came down to us from Panembahan di Karang, AKA Batara Moedik.
This 1934 edition was a romanised version of the original in hanacaraka that was published in 1928, again by "De Bliksem".
Are you aware of this publication?


In 1959 R.T. Waluyodipuro published "Dhuwung luwin Ubarampe saha Lalajenganipun". This was in two parts, in the second part, dealing with pamor, and headed :- " Saking Babon Sanes , Babon Asli Saking Soerakarta" (freely:- "From original Surakarta Manuscripts") he deals with pamor quite intensively, the image below is an example of one of the pages from the book. I apologise for the quality of the image, but it is a photo of a photocopy that was made from a poorly preserved original. Still, I think it is clear enough? Is this similar to the pamor information your Ngayogyakarta friend advised you to refrain from making public?

Kulino, I would most respectfully suggest that in relation to the advice of your friend from Ngayogyakarta, you may care to apply the basic principles of understanding that are appropriate to all dealings within Javanese relationships.

Personally I find it rather strange that an Abdi Dalem of the Karaton Ngayogyakarta should presume to tender advice that contravenes the wishes of somebody connected to the Karaton Surakarta, in respect of a document which originated from Surakarta. Let us not forget that Ngayogyakarta is the junior House of the Mataram Line, even if they do have some pretty inflated opinions. Admitted, in recent times Ngayogyakarta has exercised considerable political power, and Surakarta has had its own internal problems, but these two factors do not obliterate the historical truth and the true order of the world.

[Kulino]

Hi Alan,

With the metal varieties I mean the descriptions as recorded in the Pakem Pusaka, duwung,sabet, tumbak. As described by R.Ng Ronggowarsito, put in roman/latin writing by R.Ng. Hartokretarto in 1925. Chapter 1, dumugi and chapter 2 Rupinipun tosan ingkang awon sarta ingkang sae. It describes 44 types of iron like tosan malela, tosan padma, tosan wulung, tosan sembodja, etc. with scent, colour, glow, layers, skin and sometimes sound. It also describes the effects of these metals on the owner.

My Yogja teacher gave me this advice years after my Solo teacher passed away. They haven't met in person. My Solo teacher left Indonesia in the sixties. He was very much of a rebel, loyal to the Dutch. Concerned that the knowledge from his photographic memory would be lost he urged me and my co-students to write down the answers to our questions and more. He went back only once to find others had taken hold of his house(s) and its content. He adopted me in his family. I enjoyed his teachings and warm company during weekends and vacations for more than 14 years. He once said to me: "Now you know and can't ever pretend you did not know'. These words weigh heavy on my shoulders. Only now I begin the understand the scope his teachings. Only now the pieces of puzzle start coming together more and more.

The cult of keris which is here now, was not there at that time. At risk of sounding patronising, general public should not be give open access to all information. If people really want to know, answers will be given. Only when questions are asked. Not the full extent of all possible information because this needs to filled with understanding, maybe even in a different cultural context.
Understanding keris is different from collecting or trading. To me it means knowing wayang, lakons, stones, herbs, colours, mustika etc and their coherence.

Knowledge is connected to responsibility. To protect the content but also the potential users.
I'm sure my Solo teacher would have agreed to this. This was the line in him educating me. It was respect shown by my Yogja teacher towards my Solo teacher. But I believe this principle is not different than you described in your message?

In my opinion pamor signs are not isolated phenomena. It is a manifestation of a part of a reality. The pamor descriptions I have are more detailed, less grouped. They are like an alphabet. They can be grouped differently, generating different meaning, depending on the context. Drawing them, grasping them, grinds understanding, creating interpretation. It's almost like Chinese characters. No one knows them all, you have to study them to understand. In combination with each other, they create context which needs to be interpreted. With keris the context has to be completed with the dapur, metal hulu, dress and the present custodian/fellow traveller. Without that context the keris has no purpose, is just a wonderful ethnographic object.
I guess it is the same with you understanding dapur and more. It took effort, time to sink in. It is useless to share.

Again, I’m afraid this is far beyond which is allowed in this section of Keris. Please excuse me for trespassing.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you very much for your most recent post Kulino.

Please permit me to assure you that you have not "trespassed" at all, rather, you have said more in this post # 37 than you have said in all your previous posts, and I most sincerely thank you for this.

Now I believe understand your orientation and understanding of the keris, and that is a giant leap forward for me.

I know the original Ronggowarsito work, but do not have a copy, I have not seen the Hartokretarto transliteration into roman text.

My understanding of the Ronggowarsito work is that it takes the theosophical approach that grew in popularity amongst the Javanese elites as colonial domination became more oppressive. This understanding has been gained second hand from discussion with a relative who had intense interest in Javanese theosophy. As with virtually all writings by Karaton pujanggas, the content of this work was not drawn from thin air, nor from imagination, it came from earlier sources that were then re-interpreted by R.Ng. Ronggowarsito. My understanding is that the major source was an earlier manuscript from a Pajang pujangga. I do not recall all the details, and as I said, this is second hand knowledge and as such, could be flawed. It is something I have never pursued.

R. Ng. Hartokretarto was involved in the production of a pre-WWII magazine that was printed in Solo between about 1920 and 1940, I believe that WWII put an end to it. This magazine was called "Kumandhang Theosofie" ( An Echo of Theosophy), I have seen photocopies of this magazine, I think perhaps the originals of these photocopies might be in the Mangkunegaraan Library in Solo.

The Solo elites were of course loyal to the Dutch, this attitude was still very much alive in the 1960's and 1970's, but it has faded into history in recent years. I know one lady who was born in the late 1930's who was educated in a Catholic school that was very much Dutch-Catholic, and whose way of thinking, even now, is very much Dutch orientated. She collects all types of porcelain that have pictures of windmills. Not interested in anything else, only windmills. If they were real windmills, her house would fly away.

But is this acceptance of Dutch values a rebellious attitude?
Well, that probably depends upon the way in which a person thinks.
Children rebel against authority.
Adults accept the authority and work around it, or with it.
There is a Javanese saying that translates as:-
"Do not try to lift more than you can carry"
A core value of the Javanese persona is "nrima" : to accept without protest or to resign oneself to something; the concept being that all is pre-ordained and to attempt to change that which God has arranged is not only arrogant, but also stupid, and a price will have to be paid. The world turns.
The elites of Solo are probably more Javanese than anybody else in the Land of Jawa.

Kulino, you have voiced the opinion that the cult of the keris was not in existence during the time you were receiving instruction from your teacher.

I would take a slightly different perspective in relation to that matter:-

in Jawa Tengah, the "cult of the keris" has never been dead, it has always been a part of the core values of Javanese culture, however, it is only since perhaps the mid -1970's that we have seen an increase in interest in the keris, and only since the monetary crisis of the late 1990's that a popular interest has developed. There are a number of reasons for that popular interest, and I would prefer not to comment further on this.

I love this passage in your post:-

" At risk of sounding patronising, general public should not be give open access to all information. If people really want to know, answers will be given. Only when questions are asked. Not the full extent of all possible information because this needs to filled with understanding, maybe even in a different cultural context."

I could well have written this myself. It is exactly, precisely the way in which Javanese knowledge is transmitted, and sometimes, very, very rarely, the way in which the questions are answered is not from any earthly source.

The real reason for restricting knowledge is to protect the person who does not have the foundation understanding to permit him to use the knowledge in an appropriate way. Without that foundation understanding the new knowledge itself cannot be understood, thus it just becomes so many words that lack meaning. But this also must be considered:- only those who are able to use the knowledge appropriately will be able to understand that knowledge:- for the uninitiated it is only words, for the initiated it becomes knowledge.

Kulino, your comments regarding the understanding of pamor motifs reflect your approach to keris study, and I now understand that the way you have approached this is through a Javanese belief system that owes much to the influence of Sufic mysticism on Javanese culture, which began in the mid-1500's, and probably reached its peak in late colonial times.

Some of this belief has become popular belief and as such is more or less common knowledge, some of this belief can be considered as restricted knowledge.

After review of what you have written since the beginning of this thread, I have formed my own opinion that your Solo teacher held an attitude that the time in history had come for some things that were a part of his culture to be passed into the bank of world knowledge to ensure that those things were not lost forever.

On the other hand, your Jogja friend seems to have the attitude that when the purpose for any knowledge no longer exists, it quite acceptable for that knowledge to disappear.

I make no comment either for or against these two opposing opinions.

I leave it to you to form your own opinion of the way in which you should act. This way will be shown to you by the peace of your inner feelings (kabatinan).

[Kulino]

Dear Alan,
Thank you.
In respect of my Solo teacher’s rebel character, I have to say this went beyond just a feeling. After surviving the Japanese camps he was active as an intelligence officer.

My position in sharing knowledge has only partly to do with the road to understanding. We agree, this takes lots of time and effort. I even took up Solonese dancing for 13 years, six hours a week, not to perform but to understand. Although I knew that a well-trained late starter cannot exceed the level of a 15 year old Javanese dancer, I have to say I fully enjoyed dancing Menak Jinggo among others and ultimately Kelana Topeng. Performing was not my cup of tea but it came with the turf. To understand one has to immerse one self, not just skim the surface. But even then as I know of my dancing skills, as a non native one can only go to a certain dept. Sad to say that this dept is deeper then most Javanese get nowadays.

My hesitance also has to do with the abuse of knowledge. I have seen people use this knowledge to exercise power over feeble minded people. I have seen people charging a lot of money for bogus information. I do not want the things I hold close to my heart, to be part of that. It should not be a commercial instrument at least not by my doing. This is why I keep myself far from trading or collecting. Keris travel by themselves. By trading you will not acquire a higher standard.

As to your non earthly sources: I was brought to my Yogya teacher by a good Javanese friend of mine, also his cousin. At first he seemed to be reserved, but when I met him later that evening after his meditations he told me that the Elders had ordered him to answer all my questions. And boy, I had some questions. During our many discussions, many of the things my Solonese teacher told me, started to make a deeper sense. In itself is was weird to have discussions at all for Adat reasons, but more than once he expressed his great appreciation for me questioning items and the fact that we actually discussed matters. I think I ‘grew up’ in the middle, maybe the same as you. Is was, according to both my teachers, already predicted by Sunan Kalijogo. ’ White buffalos crossing the water as guardians of knowledge.’ I haven’t read the Joyoboyo but the fact that both mentioned it is nice.
Tak dir.

Let's assume for arguments sake, Kodrat stands for nature and Irogdat would stand voor culture.
Pamors appearing in nature, can also be found in culture. Patterns in stone (Aki) could appear in keris. In your opinion, what is their connection?