Solor stick sword for sharing & comment

Sajen · 13th March 2016, 03:18 PM

By my last trip to Indonesia I get a completely rustet stick sword from Solor (see Albert G. v. Zonnefeld, Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago, page 129). I have had removed most of the dark rust. After I have shown this sword to our member Roland M he offered a polish and etch of the blade. So a big "Thank" to him for the great job he have done. The blade show surprisingly a hamon at the edge. This blade is a high quality forged blade. Enjoy the pictures of this very rare weapon.

Rick · 13th March 2016, 05:49 PM

Hey!
I've got one of those babys.

Nice toa Detlef.

Sajen · 13th March 2016, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hey!
I've got one of those babys.

Nice toa Detlef.

Hello Rick,

yes, I know that you own such a rare sword. I have a second one, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=solor
Sadly this one still wait for restauration.
When you know how small the Solor Island is you can imagine that this swords are more as rare, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solor
I think that this swords are really treasures.

Regards,
Detlef

kronckew · 13th March 2016, 06:55 PM

nice, reminds me of a moro panabas.

Sajen · 13th March 2016, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

nice, reminds me of a moro panabas.

Yes, a similar weapon and for sure a similar use! Thank you!

Timo Nieminen · 13th March 2016, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

The blade show surprisingly a hamon at the edge.

I just ask: why is it surprising?

Sajen · 13th March 2016, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

I just ask: why is it surprising?

Hello Timo,

a hamon I know from dha but I have seldom seen it by Indonesian blades, most of the time this blades are laminated. To create a hamon is not easy and I am nearly sure that this blade wasn't forged by a local blacksmith from Solor.

Regards,
Detlef

Rick · 14th March 2016, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

To create a hamon is not easy and I am nearly sure that this blade wasn't forged by a local blacksmith from Solor.

I had the same feeling about my example.
I wonder where they were sourced from if not of local manufacture?

Sajen · 14th March 2016, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I had the same feeling about my example.
I wonder where they were sourced from if not of local manufacture?

A.G. Zonneveld write at the in up mentioned page about the stick swords from Flores which have a different blade shape : "Almost always these blades are imported from south-east Sulawesi, mostly from the Rumbia region, where swords of this type are called toa." But this blades are laminated so far I know.
Maybe Chinese blacksmithes?

Regards,
Detlef

Timo Nieminen · 14th March 2016, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Timo,

a hamon I know from dha but I have seldom seen it by Indonesian blades, most of the time this blades are laminated. To create a hamon is not easy and I am nearly sure that this blade wasn't forged by a local blacksmith from Solor.

For low-tech metalwork (i.e., unknown carbon content, no thermometers or temperature controlled ovens), differential hardening can be easier than trying to achieve a uniformly non-brittle hard blade. If your blade is short enough so that edge quenching is practical, then all you need is a teapot full of water, e.g., as done for edge quenching of kukris (technically, you need the knowledge/experience to know what to do with the teapot full of water as well as the actual teapot).

Royston · 14th March 2016, 06:31 PM

Yes, I know, I am being greedy.

I have collected since the 70's and these are the only two I have ever seen. Both are horn, wood, horn although the horn is wrapped around the wood on the pommel end so I think they are one piece wooden hilts with horn decoration.

Sajen, I think you are correct about their rarity. Not surprising seeing the size of the Islands.

Regards
Roy

Royston · 14th March 2016, 06:39 PM

I forgot these two photos. Note how the pommel end shows wood with a thin layer of horn wrapped around it.

Roy

Sajen · 19th March 2016, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royston

Yes, I know, I am being greedy.

I have collected since the 70's and these are the only two I have ever seen. Both are horn, wood, horn although the horn is wrapped around the wood on the pommel end so I think they are one piece wooden hilts with horn decoration.

Sajen, I think you are correct about their rarity. Not surprising seeing the size of the Islands.

Regards
Roy

Hello Roy,

thank you very much for posting your two nice examples, the one in up seems to be very similar to my posted example. May I ask how long it is overall and the length of the blade?
It's most interesting that the handles are not simple wrapped with horn but the horn is covered with a piece of horn without a joint, a technic I never have seen before. This is also the problem by the restauration of my other example.
Again, two very nice and rare examples you own!

Best regards,
Detlef

Roland_M · 14th March 2016, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

For low-tech metalwork (i.e., unknown carbon content, no thermometers or temperature controlled ovens), differential hardening can be easier than trying to achieve a uniformly non-brittle hard blade.

Hi Timo,

This blade is no low-tech metalwork, the blade is thin, tough, very sharp and absolutely flawless forged. This blade was forged by a master blacksmith. It is made from unknown type of crucible steel with very low contrast structure, possibly wootz. The high resistance against abrasion is an indicator.

A skillfull differential hardened blade has a very uniform hardness along the cutting edge. Differential hardening with clay on the blade is always more difficult than uniform hardening, especially if hardened in water. Many things are important like the temperature of water, the hardening time, the consistance and mixture of the clay and so on. The volume of hardened steel is bigger than unhardened steel, this causes tensions in the material. Even the best Japanese swordsmiths have lost blades during the hardening process because of hardening cracks (Hagire).

The temperature of hot steel can be controlled by its color. Well trained eyes do this with a precision of +- 10°C.

Roland

Timo Nieminen · 14th March 2016, 10:02 PM

"Low-tech" is not the same as "unskilled" or "low quality". I have seen low-tech metalwork of superb quality. Low-tech just means that the smith doesn't have power tools (e.g., power hammers), temperature controlled ovens for tempering, access to steel of known composition, quantitatively accurate hardness testers, etc.

Yes, differential hardening with a clay coating is more difficult than uniform quenching. I don't think this blade would have been done that way - probably edge-quenched instead.]

The difficulty in low-tech heat treatment isn't the quench. As you say, you can tell temperature of very hot steel by colour. The tricky part is tempering to reduce the brittleness after quenching. This will be even more the case if the blade is wootz (or some other very high carbon crucible steel); tricky enough so that wootz blades were often air-cooled rather than quenched.

Differential hardening, whether by differential quenching, differential tempering, or laminated/composite constructions like welded-edge/inserted-edge or sanmei add a lot of forgiveness to the heat-treatment process, especially tempering.

13th March 2016, 03:18 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,770	Solor stick sword for sharing & comment By my last trip to Indonesia I get a completely rustet stick sword from Solor (see Albert G. v. Zonnefeld, Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago, page 129). I have had removed most of the dark rust. After I have shown this sword to our member Roland M he offered a polish and etch of the blade. So a big "Thank" to him for the great job he have done. The blade show surprisingly a hamon at the edge. This blade is a high quality forged blade. Enjoy the pictures of this very rare weapon. Attached Images

13th March 2016, 05:49 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Hey! I've got one of those babys. Nice toa Detlef. Attached Images

14th March 2016, 06:31 PM	#11
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	A couple more Yes, I know, I am being greedy. I have collected since the 70's and these are the only two I have ever seen. Both are horn, wood, horn although the horn is wrapped around the wood on the pommel end so I think they are one piece wooden hilts with horn decoration. Sajen, I think you are correct about their rarity. Not surprising seeing the size of the Islands. Regards Roy Attached Images

14th March 2016, 06:39 PM	#12
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	I forgot these two photos. Note how the pommel end shows wood with a thin layer of horn wrapped around it. Roy Attached Images

13th March 2016, 06:55 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,182	nice, reminds me of a moro panabas.

14th March 2016, 10:02 PM	#15
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	"Low-tech" is not the same as "unskilled" or "low quality". I have seen low-tech metalwork of superb quality. Low-tech just means that the smith doesn't have power tools (e.g., power hammers), temperature controlled ovens for tempering, access to steel of known composition, quantitatively accurate hardness testers, etc. Yes, differential hardening with a clay coating is more difficult than uniform quenching. I don't think this blade would have been done that way - probably edge-quenched instead.] The difficulty in low-tech heat treatment isn't the quench. As you say, you can tell temperature of very hot steel by colour. The tricky part is tempering to reduce the brittleness after quenching. This will be even more the case if the blade is wootz (or some other very high carbon crucible steel); tricky enough so that wootz blades were often air-cooled rather than quenched. Differential hardening, whether by differential quenching, differential tempering, or laminated/composite constructions like welded-edge/inserted-edge or sanmei add a lot of forgiveness to the heat-treatment process, especially tempering.