A 13 C. Crusader sword from the Holy Land

Oriental-Arms · 26th March 2009, 02:20 PM

This sword was first posted in the ethnographic forum but the interest in it was quite low. At the suggestion of Jim McDougal I am posting it here with some more information:

This sword was collected in the desert on the surface after a heavy sand storm that moved tons of sand, somewhere in the southern region of the Holy land. The exact location is unknown to me. I chased this sword from quite many years and finally it found a good home in my drawer.

The blade is 33 1/2 inches long, 2 inches wide with traces of wide and long shallow fuller. About 2 inch are missing from the blade tip. The cross guard is of round cross section flaring at its tip and the pommel knob is a heavy steel of polygonal shape. Total length 39 1/2 inches.

The sword was X-Rayed in order to better determine the length of the fuller and to try and learn how it was constructed. The full length of the X-Ray image is here below. (Actually it is composed of three different X-Ray shots)

The X Ray image of the cross guard is also shown below:\

It looks as if the cross guard was prepared separately, heated, hammered into the blade shoulders and let cool down.

The sword is believed to fit to Oakeshott type XII, mid 13 C.

Beside this sword and very unfortunately, in spite of thousands of crusaders marching through the Holy Land during almost 200 years, not a single complete crusader sword was found here, save few fragments in private collections and two swords salvaged from the sea at the old port of Atlit which naturally are nothing more than a pack of rust. This sword is in a surprisingly good condition, with the light blade still flexible.

Your comments are welcome.

Gavin Nugent · 26th March 2009, 02:37 PM

My comments are quite simple,

Thank you for sharing such a wonderful piece of history. It pleases me to no end to see someone taking such and interest in chasing this piece down and going to such lengths with x-rays to learn more of the swords nature.
Thank you for sharing. If I was a rich man I'd sure be scouring the deserts with a metal detector and a GPS, so much history is still beneath the sands of time.

regards

Gav

Jim McDougall · 26th March 2009, 09:17 PM

Artzi, thank you so very much for posting this most amazing sword, a fantastic piece of history that has reposed for so many years beneath the sand. It is wonderful to have the opportunity to view and discuss this here, and I look forward to views from those here with key knowledge on swords of these important historic times.

I'm with Gav, I'd love to be out there with a metal detector too

but in the meantime, thanks to you Artzi, we have one here to see!

All very best regards,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 26th March 2009, 10:22 PM

Hi,
The Type XII for me epitomises the archetypal 'knights sword'. As far as I can remember this type was one of the most produced in the Medieval period. It does seem unusual that a sword produced in numbers over a long period of time should be so scantily represented in one of the most fought over theatres in the Middle Ages. With an abundance of dry and arid climatic regions you would think that well preserved examples would be more prolific. Perhaps this scarcity is due more to the care of the 'victors' in stripping the battlefield of reusable 'materiel' than anything else, after all weapons grade metal would not be 'a penny a pound'. From memory a distinct feature of Type XII blades is a lenticular cross section it is difficult to see this in the photographs and I just wonder if you could confirm that the blade has this particular property. A really nice addition to any collection.
My Regards,
Norman.

cornelistromp · 26th March 2009, 11:05 PM

really Beautiful sword , and great work with the x-ray.
thank you for placing this interesting thread.
if the rust is "loose" and the sword is in a sound condition you can consider cleaning by electrolyze. (mind. it will not harm the steel but the pitting will be more obvious and the cross guard probably will come loose from the shoulder).

with a medium-strong tapering of the blade, as seen on the pictures and if the point is reinforced,of a flat diamond shaped section??, the classification can also be Oakeshott type XVI.
The date of mid 14THC matches the Pommel variation of type i.

again an amazing sword!

best regards

stekemest · 27th March 2009, 12:36 AM

Do NOT use electrolyze. It could destroy the swords's patina.
You could use a dremel/flex and a steel brush instead. That would neither hurt the metal nor the patina, but remove the rust.

Peter

migueldiaz · 27th March 2009, 06:14 AM

Amazing! Thanks for sharing the info

Norman McCormick · 27th March 2009, 10:38 PM

Hi,
With the blade cross section being lenticular, the length of the fuller 2/3~3/4 of blade length and the wide blade root with a continuous taper these attributes would almost certainly bring this blade under the umbrella of Type XII although the possibility of the blade being originally 35 1/2 inches in total could push it into Type XIIa territory as the Type XII's blade was more typically 30~33 inches having said that the grip on this sword must be about 4~5 inches and this would further typify it as a XII. The pommel/crossguard shapes were many and varied on this blade, as the basic profile was around for some time, and they are not used in determining type. Hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Norman.

Gonzalo G · 29th March 2009, 05:51 AM

Aritzi, thank you very much for sharing this interesting historical piece. Is not common to see this kind of valuable documental information on the web. I also appreciate very much your kindness in maintaining your sword and knife files open on the web to see, and use this opportunity to thank you for it. You have provided me with many good information and incredible photos to my archive.
All the best for you

Gonzalo

broadaxe · 30th March 2009, 01:30 PM

The sword is clean and in stable condition, no loose rust. I had the chance to handle it several times, both with its previous and current owners. As said by Atzi, it is very much alive and it never fail to amaze how flexible it is.

Jim McDougall · 13th April 2009, 07:43 PM

I keep returning to this amazing sword, and wondering about excavations in regions where the crusades took place. It seems at our annual dinner in I believe 2003, there was an amazing talk given by a young lady who was an archaeologist who had participated in one of these projects. I cannot find my notes, nor recall her name or details of her findings.
Can anyone help?
I am wondering about what seems to have been the remains of a horseman and his horse both with imbedded arrowheads, and apparantly left in situ.

It seems remarkable that no other swords from actions that took place over almost two centuries have been found in such excavations. Any further perspective on this?

All best regards,
Jim

stekemest · 13th April 2009, 08:53 PM

Hi Jim,
I don't know if I understand your question correctly (my English is not the best), but if you ask why so few swords are found on battlefields: after the battle, victorious soldiers and peasants from all around came to the battlefield and collected everything that was worth something or could somehow be used, especially undamaged armour and weapons. That's why swords are often missing.

26th March 2009, 02:20 PM	#1
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	A 13 C. Crusader sword from the Holy Land This sword was first posted in the ethnographic forum but the interest in it was quite low. At the suggestion of Jim McDougal I am posting it here with some more information: This sword was collected in the desert on the surface after a heavy sand storm that moved tons of sand, somewhere in the southern region of the Holy land. The exact location is unknown to me. I chased this sword from quite many years and finally it found a good home in my drawer. The blade is 33 1/2 inches long, 2 inches wide with traces of wide and long shallow fuller. About 2 inch are missing from the blade tip. The cross guard is of round cross section flaring at its tip and the pommel knob is a heavy steel of polygonal shape. Total length 39 1/2 inches. The sword was X-Rayed in order to better determine the length of the fuller and to try and learn how it was constructed. The full length of the X-Ray image is here below. (Actually it is composed of three different X-Ray shots) The X Ray image of the cross guard is also shown below:\ It looks as if the cross guard was prepared separately, heated, hammered into the blade shoulders and let cool down. The sword is believed to fit to Oakeshott type XII, mid 13 C. Beside this sword and very unfortunately, in spite of thousands of crusaders marching through the Holy Land during almost 200 years, not a single complete crusader sword was found here, save few fragments in private collections and two swords salvaged from the sea at the old port of Atlit which naturally are nothing more than a pack of rust. This sword is in a surprisingly good condition, with the light blade still flexible. Your comments are welcome.

26th March 2009, 02:37 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	My Comments My comments are quite simple, Thank you for sharing such a wonderful piece of history. It pleases me to no end to see someone taking such and interest in chasing this piece down and going to such lengths with x-rays to learn more of the swords nature. Thank you for sharing. If I was a rich man I'd sure be scouring the deserts with a metal detector and a GPS, so much history is still beneath the sands of time. regards Gav

26th March 2009, 09:17 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Artzi, thank you so very much for posting this most amazing sword, a fantastic piece of history that has reposed for so many years beneath the sand. It is wonderful to have the opportunity to view and discuss this here, and I look forward to views from those here with key knowledge on swords of these important historic times. I'm with Gav, I'd love to be out there with a metal detector too but in the meantime, thanks to you Artzi, we have one here to see! All very best regards, Jim

26th March 2009, 10:22 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi, The Type XII for me epitomises the archetypal 'knights sword'. As far as I can remember this type was one of the most produced in the Medieval period. It does seem unusual that a sword produced in numbers over a long period of time should be so scantily represented in one of the most fought over theatres in the Middle Ages. With an abundance of dry and arid climatic regions you would think that well preserved examples would be more prolific. Perhaps this scarcity is due more to the care of the 'victors' in stripping the battlefield of reusable 'materiel' than anything else, after all weapons grade metal would not be 'a penny a pound'. From memory a distinct feature of Type XII blades is a lenticular cross section it is difficult to see this in the photographs and I just wonder if you could confirm that the blade has this particular property. A really nice addition to any collection. My Regards, Norman.

26th March 2009, 11:05 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	really Beautiful sword , and great work with the x-ray. thank you for placing this interesting thread. if the rust is "loose" and the sword is in a sound condition you can consider cleaning by electrolyze. (mind. it will not harm the steel but the pitting will be more obvious and the cross guard probably will come loose from the shoulder). with a medium-strong tapering of the blade, as seen on the pictures and if the point is reinforced,of a flat diamond shaped section??, the classification can also be Oakeshott type XVI. The date of mid 14THC matches the Pommel variation of type i. again an amazing sword! best regards

27th March 2009, 12:36 AM	#6
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	Do NOT use electrolyze. It could destroy the swords's patina. You could use a dremel/flex and a steel brush instead. That would neither hurt the metal nor the patina, but remove the rust. Peter

27th March 2009, 06:14 AM	#7
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Amazing! Thanks for sharing the info

27th March 2009, 10:38 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi, With the blade cross section being lenticular, the length of the fuller 2/3~3/4 of blade length and the wide blade root with a continuous taper these attributes would almost certainly bring this blade under the umbrella of Type XII although the possibility of the blade being originally 35 1/2 inches in total could push it into Type XIIa territory as the Type XII's blade was more typically 30~33 inches having said that the grip on this sword must be about 4~5 inches and this would further typify it as a XII. The pommel/crossguard shapes were many and varied on this blade, as the basic profile was around for some time, and they are not used in determining type. Hope this is of some help. Regards, Norman.

29th March 2009, 05:51 AM	#9
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Aritzi, thank you very much for sharing this interesting historical piece. Is not common to see this kind of valuable documental information on the web. I also appreciate very much your kindness in maintaining your sword and knife files open on the web to see, and use this opportunity to thank you for it. You have provided me with many good information and incredible photos to my archive. All the best for you Gonzalo

30th March 2009, 01:30 PM	#10
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	The sword is clean and in stable condition, no loose rust. I had the chance to handle it several times, both with its previous and current owners. As said by Atzi, it is very much alive and it never fail to amaze how flexible it is.

13th April 2009, 07:43 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	I keep returning to this amazing sword, and wondering about excavations in regions where the crusades took place. It seems at our annual dinner in I believe 2003, there was an amazing talk given by a young lady who was an archaeologist who had participated in one of these projects. I cannot find my notes, nor recall her name or details of her findings. Can anyone help? I am wondering about what seems to have been the remains of a horseman and his horse both with imbedded arrowheads, and apparantly left in situ. It seems remarkable that no other swords from actions that took place over almost two centuries have been found in such excavations. Any further perspective on this? All best regards, Jim

13th April 2009, 08:53 PM	#12
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	Hi Jim, I don't know if I understand your question correctly (my English is not the best), but if you ask why so few swords are found on battlefields: after the battle, victorious soldiers and peasants from all around came to the battlefield and collected everything that was worth something or could somehow be used, especially undamaged armour and weapons. That's why swords are often missing.