European hunting sword for comments

ASomer · 28th November 2023, 10:22 PM

Hi I am wondering if anyone can help me to identify this sabre, with etchings.
Thanks in adavance.

cel7 · 29th November 2023, 12:55 AM

Interesting piece! The "Turk head" decoration is something you often see on late 18th/early 19th century European sabres.

Jim McDougall · 29th November 2023, 04:59 AM

As noted, these kinds of decorative blade themes are from European regions in the mid 18th to early 19th centuries, as the oriental mystique became popular in military units emulating the notorious pandours of Austro-Hungary .

The Turks head, magic/occult symbols and devices were meant to further carry this mystique in the overall esoteric character of the sword. While these kinds of decorative devices are familiar from East European swords, they were also popular in French swords where elements of troops from these places were often factored into French forces.

Norman McCormick · 29th November 2023, 03:01 PM

Hi,
Looks to me like a decent quality 18thC/early 19thC hunting sword from continental Europe. See attached example along similar lines.
Regards,
Norman.

Akanthus · 1st December 2023, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
Looks to me like a decent quality 18thC/early 19thC hunting sword from continental Europe. See attached example along similar lines.
Regards,
Norman.

Oh yes.I see a hunting sword, mid 18th.century , grip form
and the short guard probably show french origin.

ASomer · 29th November 2023, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As noted, these kinds of decorative blade themes are from European regions in the mid 18th to early 19th centuries, as the oriental mystique became popular in military units emulating the notorious pandours of Austro-Hungary .

The Turks head, magic/occult symbols and devices were meant to further carry this mystique in the overall esoteric character of the sword. While these kinds of decorative devices are familiar from East European swords, they were also popular in French swords where elements of troops from these places were often factored into French forces.

Thanks for the info, I have also found another thread on this topic from a few years ago.
Is there no literature out there on the topic of these inscriptions? I am wondering what alpahbet it is and what it means...
Thanks

Jim McDougall · 30th November 2023, 06:04 PM

May I request that this thread move to European?

As Norman has well noted, this is a European sword, possibly a hunting hanger as used by jagers, which were specially formed light infantry units. These units were essentially for forward action, skirmishing and activity outside the movement of larger formations. As foragers (the term jager in German =hunter) they were also responsible for food supply.

In that they were often in battle with or proximity of Ottoman forces, the affinity for oriental fashions,styles and of course weaponry was prevalent.
These circumstances were of course well known with the pandour units of Baron von Trenck in the service of Maria Theresa.

The 18th century fascination with the mysteries of the occult, magic and oriental esoterica led to the use of these kinds of decoration and motif on sword blades, and as seen here, often the elements of the sword itself. This was known in the 18th c. as 'chinoserie' (=in the Chinese manner) referring to of course 'oriental', which actually collectively referred to China, Japan, India and even Ottoman (Middle East as well).

Fantastic piece of esoteric weaponry!

Ian · 1st December 2023, 06:39 AM

Moved as requested

Norman McCormick · 1st December 2023, 04:45 PM

Hi,
All these tagged as French 18thC from old sales catalogues.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 1st December 2023, 05:14 PM

Spot on Norman!
This style of blade decoration was extremely popular in Nantes, particularly by the purveyor Caissagnard as I understand, following similar 'oriental' fashions in Eastern Europe.
Note the 'clipped point' in the one at top, termed a 'pandour point' (Seifert, 1962).

Akanthus · 1st December 2023, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Spot on Norman!
This style of blade decoration was extremely popular in Nantes, particularly by the purveyor Caissagnard as I understand, following similar 'oriental' fashions in Eastern Europe.
Note the 'clipped point' in the one at top, termed a 'pandour point' (Seifert, 1962).

The panduric style was very popular in the middle of the 18th.century ,when Franz von der Trenck gathered a 5000 soldier corps,to support Maria Theresia in her fight against Frederic the Great in Slesia.The soldiers where known as wild and brave and became a symbol for adventure in those highly restricted times.I have a German hunting sword from the same time, that also shows a panduric tip,in combination with a Pandur on the blade and the inscription " Vivat Pandur" .The inscription on the sword discussed makes no sense bur it looks somehowe "eastern" and that was the sense of the decoration.

ASomer · 1st December 2023, 10:11 PM

After doing a bit of reasearch i realized that in Austria-Hungary they were/are also called Pandurendolch.

28th November 2023, 10:22 PM	#1
ASomer Member Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 8	European hunting sword for comments Hi I am wondering if anyone can help me to identify this sabre, with etchings. Thanks in adavance. Attached Images

29th November 2023, 04:59 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	As noted, these kinds of decorative blade themes are from European regions in the mid 18th to early 19th centuries, as the oriental mystique became popular in military units emulating the notorious pandours of Austro-Hungary . The Turks head, magic/occult symbols and devices were meant to further carry this mystique in the overall esoteric character of the sword. While these kinds of decorative devices are familiar from East European swords, they were also popular in French swords where elements of troops from these places were often factored into French forces. Attached Images

29th November 2023, 03:01 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi, Looks to me like a decent quality 18thC/early 19thC hunting sword from continental Europe. See attached example along similar lines. Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 29th November 2023 at 03:15 PM.

1st December 2023, 06:39 AM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	And so ... over to the European Armoury forum Moved as requested

1st December 2023, 04:45 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi, All these tagged as French 18thC from old sales catalogues. Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 1st December 2023 at 04:58 PM.

29th November 2023, 12:55 AM	#2
cel7 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 154	Interesting piece! The "Turk head" decoration is something you often see on late 18th/early 19th century European sabres.

30th November 2023, 06:04 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	May I request that this thread move to European? As Norman has well noted, this is a European sword, possibly a hunting hanger as used by jagers, which were specially formed light infantry units. These units were essentially for forward action, skirmishing and activity outside the movement of larger formations. As foragers (the term jager in German =hunter) they were also responsible for food supply. In that they were often in battle with or proximity of Ottoman forces, the affinity for oriental fashions,styles and of course weaponry was prevalent. These circumstances were of course well known with the pandour units of Baron von Trenck in the service of Maria Theresa. The 18th century fascination with the mysteries of the occult, magic and oriental esoterica led to the use of these kinds of decoration and motif on sword blades, and as seen here, often the elements of the sword itself. This was known in the 18th c. as 'chinoserie' (=in the Chinese manner) referring to of course 'oriental', which actually collectively referred to China, Japan, India and even Ottoman (Middle East as well). Fantastic piece of esoteric weaponry!

1st December 2023, 05:14 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Spot on Norman! This style of blade decoration was extremely popular in Nantes, particularly by the purveyor Caissagnard as I understand, following similar 'oriental' fashions in Eastern Europe. Note the 'clipped point' in the one at top, termed a 'pandour point' (Seifert, 1962).

1st December 2023, 10:11 PM	#12
ASomer Member Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 8	After doing a bit of reasearch i realized that in Austria-Hungary they were/are also called Pandurendolch.