Yemeni Sayfs? Omani Kattaras?

SwedeGreen · 10th October 2012, 01:11 AM

Friends:

I'd like some help in identifying these four swords. They were purchased in Yemen and brought to the US in the 1960's. I'd like to learn, as best I can:

Where they originated?
What period / date they would have been made?
Rough value?
I realize that these may not be answerable by viewing a few photos but I'll start here.

Respectfully Requested
Johnny

A.alnakkas · 10th October 2012, 01:09 PM

hey, welcome to the forum.

As per forum rules, we cannot do values here BUT these are interesting swords, some suggest them to be Omani while others suggest them to be Yemeni. Judging from the mounts I guess they are Omani :-)

Emanuel · 10th October 2012, 02:16 PM

Hi Johnny, welcome to this forum as well.

I'm glad you joined and posted. I look forward to a resolution on this.

Regards,
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 10th October 2012, 02:39 PM

Welcome Johnny, and these four swords are Omani kattara, and from what we have learned from Ibrahiim, who has done extensive research on these, they are primarily ceremonial swords used in Omani traditional performances. They are of course modern, and as mentioned we do not openly appraise or discuss values, but you may of course contact us privately for such matters.
I believe the blades for these are produced in Oman, and has been noted by Lofty the mounts are distinctly Omani, but not unusual for any of these weapons to travel to other locations including Yemen.

You might use the search at the top header of the page to retrieve some of the lengthy discussions that have covered these under 'kattara'. I think you will find the results greatly informative.

Thank you for posting these!!

SwedeGreen · 10th October 2012, 03:27 PM

Thank you to Jim, Emanuel (again), and Mr. Alnakkas for your welcome and info. I seem to have broken two Forum rules already so excuse me and thanks for your patience.

I'll study the forums on Kattaras while enjoying all of the rich information from the rest of this interesting field.

Respectfully
Johnny

Emanuel · 11th October 2012, 10:04 AM

Wow I'm confused

So...the sayf is straight, the kattara is curved, the old Omani battle swords were called Yamani Sayf, and this type of hilt was identified by Ibrahiim as the older, original long kattara handle, before it was simplified to the tapered one we know.

So are these old, long Omani Yamani Sayfs missing quillons? They seem quite substantial with good blades, and they seem to have some age, so why modern and ceremonial?

For reference, here are the most recent relevant threads:
Kattara for comments
You may know them as Omani Saifs but they will always be Kattara to me

All the best,
Emanuel

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th October 2012, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Welcome Johnny, and these four swords are Omani kattara, and from what we have learned from Ibrahiim, who has done extensive research on these, they are primarily ceremonial swords used in Omani traditional performances. They are of course modern, and as mentioned we do not openly appraise or discuss values, but you may of course contact us privately for such matters.
I believe the blades for these are produced in Oman, and has been noted by Lofty the mounts are distinctly Omani, but not unusual for any of these weapons to travel to other locations including Yemen.

You might use the search at the top header of the page to retrieve some of the lengthy discussions that have covered these under 'kattara'. I think you will find the results greatly informative.

Thank you for posting these!!

Salaams Jim, These swords are from Saudia/Yemen and whilst they look a little bit like the Omani variant saif... or dancing saif... they aren't. The blades are quite stiff. The odd looking hilts look similar to the old Omani battle sword, though, stretched and crude. I suspect a Hadramaut hand in the blade making and other blades which I have encountered in this Red Sea variant include Ethiopian... one of which I have. Michael Blalock lists this style with photos from both Yemen and Saudia souk and museum.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

A.alnakkas · 11th October 2012, 06:47 PM

It is safe to say that what shows up in souks (markets, like any markets around the world) is not evidence of local use. Though its really hard to pinpoint where these are from but if its from a land now encompassed by Saudi Arabia then it may offer evidence of a pre-badawi hilt type of sword? Imo Yemen is a more likely candidate as Ibrahim points out and some exist in the Yemeni museum, is it possible to contact them perhaps?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th January 2013, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwedeGreen

Friends:

I'd like some help in identifying these four swords. They were purchased in Yemen and brought to the US in the 1960's. I'd like to learn, as best I can:

Where they originated?
What period / date they would have been made?
Rough value?
I realize that these may not be answerable by viewing a few photos but I'll start here.

Respectfully Requested
Johnny

Salaams SwedeGreen ~ As you can see the your thread is current again. What I believe is key to the discussion is your excellent picture of swords and scabbards at # 1 in particular the lower sword with what I would call a simple securing mechanism between the scabbard and the hilt which as part of the scabbard slides inside the long cuff. I think this is indicative of the whole lot being made at once as a deliberate all in one sword. Therefor the search is on to discover its provenance exactly. It appears in two places Yemen and Saudia. I have loosly termed it a Red Sea variant but Im sure a more accurate description will follow.

Although there are dozens of these in the Muscat Souk there are no scabbards thus the initial thought was of a possible mixed or switched hilt scenario. On revisiting your #1 that now appears not to be true moreover I suggest that this may be a breed all of its own, though, insofar as a date of appearance I urge caution and research. ( I reckon looking at the blade it could be early/mid 19th C) On the other hand the blade is apparently similar or related to others in the Red Sea armoury so I should just say that the debate remains wide open for discussion.

My initial response at #8, however, that this was not Omani but Saudia / Yemeni still stands.

Meanwhile could you please check to see if there are any blade marks on the swords?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

10th October 2012, 03:27 PM	#5
SwedeGreen Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7	Thank You Thank you to Jim, Emanuel (again), and Mr. Alnakkas for your welcome and info. I seem to have broken two Forum rules already so excuse me and thanks for your patience. I'll study the forums on Kattaras while enjoying all of the rich information from the rest of this interesting field. Respectfully Johnny

10th October 2012, 01:11 AM	#1
SwedeGreen Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7	Yemeni Sayfs? Omani Kattaras? Friends: I'd like some help in identifying these four swords. They were purchased in Yemen and brought to the US in the 1960's. I'd like to learn, as best I can: Where they originated? What period / date they would have been made? Rough value? I realize that these may not be answerable by viewing a few photos but I'll start here. Respectfully Requested Johnny Attached Images Last edited by Lew; 27th January 2013 at 05:35 AM.

10th October 2012, 01:09 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	hey, welcome to the forum. As per forum rules, we cannot do values here BUT these are interesting swords, some suggest them to be Omani while others suggest them to be Yemeni. Judging from the mounts I guess they are Omani :-)

10th October 2012, 02:16 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Johnny, welcome to this forum as well. I'm glad you joined and posted. I look forward to a resolution on this. Regards, Emanuel

10th October 2012, 02:39 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Welcome Johnny, and these four swords are Omani kattara, and from what we have learned from Ibrahiim, who has done extensive research on these, they are primarily ceremonial swords used in Omani traditional performances. They are of course modern, and as mentioned we do not openly appraise or discuss values, but you may of course contact us privately for such matters. I believe the blades for these are produced in Oman, and has been noted by Lofty the mounts are distinctly Omani, but not unusual for any of these weapons to travel to other locations including Yemen. You might use the search at the top header of the page to retrieve some of the lengthy discussions that have covered these under 'kattara'. I think you will find the results greatly informative. Thank you for posting these!!

11th October 2012, 10:04 AM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Wow I'm confused So...the sayf is straight, the kattara is curved, the old Omani battle swords were called Yamani Sayf, and this type of hilt was identified by Ibrahiim as the older, original long kattara handle, before it was simplified to the tapered one we know. So are these old, long Omani Yamani Sayfs missing quillons? They seem quite substantial with good blades, and they seem to have some age, so why modern and ceremonial? For reference, here are the most recent relevant threads: Kattara for comments You may know them as Omani Saifs but they will always be Kattara to me All the best, Emanuel

11th October 2012, 06:47 PM	#8
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	It is safe to say that what shows up in souks (markets, like any markets around the world) is not evidence of local use. Though its really hard to pinpoint where these are from but if its from a land now encompassed by Saudi Arabia then it may offer evidence of a pre-badawi hilt type of sword? Imo Yemen is a more likely candidate as Ibrahim points out and some exist in the Yemeni museum, is it possible to contact them perhaps?