15th – 16th century, this Highland sword

Kmaddock · 12th February 2020, 12:23 PM

Hi All
interesting sale on a sword at auction last week at Easy live Auction.com

and i have pasted article in here for posterity

I know nothing on the value of these swords but it seems like an awful lot, not looking to annoy moderators with discussion on value just posting for sake of knowledge
Regards
Ken

here is article

When the hammer came down on this rusty old sword, the auction house was stunned. It had been estimated to fetch up to £200. After a dramatic bidding war, it was sold to a Canadian buyer for a colossal £30,000! Bidding over the phone, the buyer won the item after a bidder in the room folded at £29k.

Dating back to around the 15th – 16th century, this Highland sword, which also has a broken tip, was sold by Hutchinson Scott Auctioneers in Skipton, Yorkshire, after being found by the seller in his late father’s garage.

The poor condition of the sword points to it having been submerged, buried or exposed to the elements for a very long time.

Although replica swords are fairly common, very few genuine swords from the 15th and 16th centuries survive today. Of those that do, very few of them come up for auction. Most are either displayed in major museums or preserved in ancestral collections. This makes this sword a rare find indeed.

Local sword maker, Paul Macdonald from Macdonald Armouries in Edinburgh, had been hoping to bag himself a bargain. Being something of an expert, he knew this item was a true gem of much greater value than it was being credited with. Keen to purchase the sword and make a replica, he described the sale as ‘unbelievable’, stating: "I thought I might get a bargain and I was prepared to go up a bit. I was surprised when it went up to £6000 and then £7000 but, really, I am glad that it has gone for a price that reflects its true value”. He added that "clearly, its significance has been recognised and you can only hope that it has gone to a good home and that it will be looked after".

Mr Macdonald described the sword as ‘a very distinctive weapon’, noting that he has previously seen several swords of this kind at the National Museum of Ireland in Dublin. According to the sword maker, this particular weapon would have been used by the elite mercenary warriors from Scotland, employed between the 13th and 16th centuries to defend Irish chieftains or West Highlander members of the gallowglass.

The sword is currently in London, awaiting shipping to its new owner in Canada who will also pay a 20% buyer’s premium on top of the sale price of £30k, making their total outlay £36k – let’s hope they’re happy with their purchase!

Will M · 12th February 2020, 04:30 PM

This won't sneak by Canada Customs and they'll slap 13% tax on top of the total.

mariusgmioc · 12th February 2020, 05:33 PM

Holly Molly!

Some people have too much money and too little common sense...

And it is always a possibility this is a broken 19th century historicism replica that was thrown away to rust...

Victrix · 12th February 2020, 07:58 PM

interesting with what appears to be langlets.

vilhelmsson · 12th February 2020, 10:10 PM

As someone who also collects old rusty weapons, I'm generally looking for something with a little more pizzazz at the GBP 36k price point! And the rust is a "newish" looking.

Given the level of money laundering and the roll of organized crime in the broader art markets, as well as with the curious weapons that have fetched extravagant sums this year and last, is anybody aware of money laundering schemes becoming more prevalent in the arms and armor auction space?

It's a fairly straightforward process, and based on my multiple viewings of Scarface, the rates, as expressed in buyer's and seller's commissions, with the right auctioneer, could be cheaper than Tony Montana was paying in fictional '80s Miami.

CSinTX · 13th February 2020, 02:19 AM

That's a lot of money for a phone bid.

The rust does look newer but I've seen confirmed viking swords found with the same rust.

ALEX · 13th February 2020, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Holly Molly!

Some people have too much money and too little common sense...

And it is always a possibility this is a broken 19th century historicism replica that was thrown away to rust...

I also find the langets and crossguard in general to be too thin and fragile.
Can this even be a battle sword by design?

Reventlov · 14th February 2020, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

And it is always a possibility this is a broken 19th century historicism replica that was thrown away to rust...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

I also find the langets and crossguard in general to be too thin and fragile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

Is this sword type that rare and difficult to come by?

I think it may very well be genuine, the unusual details of its appearance are closely comparable to a sword found in the River Barrow in Ireland, including the langets, narrow cross, quatrefoil terminals, and multi-stage grip. Similar features are apparent in the familiar two-handed claymores, but this smaller, earlier(?) sort of weapon is even more rare, explaining the high sale price. Due to this rarity, and the specificity of detail, I think it is unlikely that it could have been imitated in the 19th century. The Irish sword was recovered only in 1935, and I know of no other example equally similar.

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2020, 05:42 PM

I would like to thank Ken VERY MUCH for posting this amazing and most historic piece!
It is somewhat disappointing that such a genuine and historically important weapon is the subject of the typical monetary competition, but this is of course the bane of true arms historians, such as Mr. MacDonald.
We can only hope that this sword has gone to a serious collector who is as well a student of arms, and not simply an investor.

Too often these things go into the secretive collections of wealthy individuals in contexts far from their historic place, and are again returned to obscurity.

Reventlov, thank you for the brilliant insights and assessment with the reference image attached, and detail on the Irish find.

The image is of a clansman from a reference in my geneology studies of our family from some years ago, but I do not have the title at hand. Naturally this may be contested historically but the context is interesting.

corrado26 · 13th February 2020, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

And it is always a possibility this is a broken 19th century historicism replica that was thrown away to rust...

That's exactly what I thought when I saw the fotos. What are the reasons to pay such an amount of money for such an amount of rust?
corrado26

Kmaddock · 13th February 2020, 10:26 AM

Hi All,

My personal Rule for auctions is do not spend more than 300 euro on a gamble.

I guess this person had more disposable than me!!

I really appreciate that value of items is not something we discuss on this forum and I think that is great as it means we discuss the item not the value.

I am on a Japanese sword forum and the first question in a lot of threads is what is it worth? I feel it devalues the item for what it is but Japanese sword collectors are an all together different bunch.

Back to the sword

Is this sword type that rare and difficult to come by? and what sort of money would a good condition one go for.

Also as the article says the sword was found in a shed so no history at all with it.

Regards to all

Ken

cornelistromp · 13th February 2020, 03:10 PM

this one is sold for GBP 240.000 at Thomas del mar in 2007, an absolute record.

the sword of post 1 stil is a bargain

AN EXCEPTIONALLY RARE SCOTTISH HIGHLAND TWO HAND SWORD, CLAIDHEAMH MOR, THIRD QUARTER OF THE 16TH CENTURY with broad flat blade cut with a pair of fullers and incised with lines on each face, stamped with two dagger-like marks, a star, and the letters 'L K' a running wolf between, rectangular ricasso struck with a Pi mark on one side (rubbed, slightly bent), steel hilt comprising a pair of robust downward-slanting quillons of flattened-hexagonal section with characteristic quatrefoil terminals, rounded collar flattened on each side, a pair of attenuated langets filed with a series of lines at the base, small wheel pommel drawn-out on each side in the centre, and later wooden grip (cleaned throughout) 97cm; 38 1/4in blade Inv. no. E035 Remarkably few of these very distinctive swords have survived, the majority of which are preserved in institutional collections. No other examples have appeared on the market in recent years. For a discussion of Scottish two hand swords and their chronology see T. Willis 1996, pp. 16-19. Swords blades of this period with the same group of marks are preserved in the Landeszeughaus Graz, inv. nos. BL166 and BL168. £50000-80000

for other examples see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=claymore

12th February 2020, 12:23 PM	#1
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	15th – 16th century, this Highland sword Hi All interesting sale on a sword at auction last week at Easy live Auction.com and i have pasted article in here for posterity I know nothing on the value of these swords but it seems like an awful lot, not looking to annoy moderators with discussion on value just posting for sake of knowledge Regards Ken here is article When the hammer came down on this rusty old sword, the auction house was stunned. It had been estimated to fetch up to £200. After a dramatic bidding war, it was sold to a Canadian buyer for a colossal £30,000! Bidding over the phone, the buyer won the item after a bidder in the room folded at £29k. Dating back to around the 15th – 16th century, this Highland sword, which also has a broken tip, was sold by Hutchinson Scott Auctioneers in Skipton, Yorkshire, after being found by the seller in his late father’s garage. The poor condition of the sword points to it having been submerged, buried or exposed to the elements for a very long time. Although replica swords are fairly common, very few genuine swords from the 15th and 16th centuries survive today. Of those that do, very few of them come up for auction. Most are either displayed in major museums or preserved in ancestral collections. This makes this sword a rare find indeed. Local sword maker, Paul Macdonald from Macdonald Armouries in Edinburgh, had been hoping to bag himself a bargain. Being something of an expert, he knew this item was a true gem of much greater value than it was being credited with. Keen to purchase the sword and make a replica, he described the sale as ‘unbelievable’, stating: "I thought I might get a bargain and I was prepared to go up a bit. I was surprised when it went up to £6000 and then £7000 but, really, I am glad that it has gone for a price that reflects its true value”. He added that "clearly, its significance has been recognised and you can only hope that it has gone to a good home and that it will be looked after". Mr Macdonald described the sword as ‘a very distinctive weapon’, noting that he has previously seen several swords of this kind at the National Museum of Ireland in Dublin. According to the sword maker, this particular weapon would have been used by the elite mercenary warriors from Scotland, employed between the 13th and 16th centuries to defend Irish chieftains or West Highlander members of the gallowglass. The sword is currently in London, awaiting shipping to its new owner in Canada who will also pay a 20% buyer’s premium on top of the sale price of £30k, making their total outlay £36k – let’s hope they’re happy with their purchase! Attached Images Last edited by Kmaddock; 12th February 2020 at 04:04 PM.

14th February 2020, 05:42 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	I would like to thank Ken VERY MUCH for posting this amazing and most historic piece! It is somewhat disappointing that such a genuine and historically important weapon is the subject of the typical monetary competition, but this is of course the bane of true arms historians, such as Mr. MacDonald. We can only hope that this sword has gone to a serious collector who is as well a student of arms, and not simply an investor. Too often these things go into the secretive collections of wealthy individuals in contexts far from their historic place, and are again returned to obscurity. Reventlov, thank you for the brilliant insights and assessment with the reference image attached, and detail on the Irish find. The image is of a clansman from a reference in my geneology studies of our family from some years ago, but I do not have the title at hand. Naturally this may be contested historically but the context is interesting. Attached Images

13th February 2020, 03:10 PM	#12
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	this one is sold for GBP 240.000 at Thomas del mar in 2007, an absolute record. the sword of post 1 stil is a bargain AN EXCEPTIONALLY RARE SCOTTISH HIGHLAND TWO HAND SWORD, CLAIDHEAMH MOR, THIRD QUARTER OF THE 16TH CENTURY with broad flat blade cut with a pair of fullers and incised with lines on each face, stamped with two dagger-like marks, a star, and the letters 'L K' a running wolf between, rectangular ricasso struck with a Pi mark on one side (rubbed, slightly bent), steel hilt comprising a pair of robust downward-slanting quillons of flattened-hexagonal section with characteristic quatrefoil terminals, rounded collar flattened on each side, a pair of attenuated langets filed with a series of lines at the base, small wheel pommel drawn-out on each side in the centre, and later wooden grip (cleaned throughout) 97cm; 38 1/4in blade Inv. no. E035 Remarkably few of these very distinctive swords have survived, the majority of which are preserved in institutional collections. No other examples have appeared on the market in recent years. For a discussion of Scottish two hand swords and their chronology see T. Willis 1996, pp. 16-19. Swords blades of this period with the same group of marks are preserved in the Landeszeughaus Graz, inv. nos. BL166 and BL168. £50000-80000 for other examples see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=claymore Attached Images

12th February 2020, 04:30 PM	#2
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	This won't sneak by Canada Customs and they'll slap 13% tax on top of the total.

12th February 2020, 05:33 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Holly Molly! Some people have too much money and too little common sense... And it is always a possibility this is a broken 19th century historicism replica that was thrown away to rust...

12th February 2020, 07:58 PM	#4
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 712	interesting with what appears to be langlets.

12th February 2020, 10:10 PM	#5
vilhelmsson Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Bay Area Posts: 57	As someone who also collects old rusty weapons, I'm generally looking for something with a little more pizzazz at the GBP 36k price point! And the rust is a "newish" looking. Given the level of money laundering and the roll of organized crime in the broader art markets, as well as with the curious weapons that have fetched extravagant sums this year and last, is anybody aware of money laundering schemes becoming more prevalent in the arms and armor auction space? It's a fairly straightforward process, and based on my multiple viewings of Scarface, the rates, as expressed in buyer's and seller's commissions, with the right auctioneer, could be cheaper than Tony Montana was paying in fictional '80s Miami.

13th February 2020, 02:19 AM	#6
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	That's a lot of money for a phone bid. The rust does look newer but I've seen confirmed viking swords found with the same rust.

13th February 2020, 10:26 AM	#11
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi All, My personal Rule for auctions is do not spend more than 300 euro on a gamble. I guess this person had more disposable than me!! I really appreciate that value of items is not something we discuss on this forum and I think that is great as it means we discuss the item not the value. I am on a Japanese sword forum and the first question in a lot of threads is what is it worth? I feel it devalues the item for what it is but Japanese sword collectors are an all together different bunch. Back to the sword Is this sword type that rare and difficult to come by? and what sort of money would a good condition one go for. Also as the article says the sword was found in a shed so no history at all with it. Regards to all Ken