an other sword from my collection..

dralin23 · 19th August 2008, 08:16 PM

i will show you also an other intresting sword from me. it is an pahari sword ore sometime also as an cobra sword known.
intresting for me was that it is mounted with an khanda basket hilt. as usual these sword was mounted with an pouluar hilt. an similar sword you can see in the book from g.n. pant. indian arms an armour vol.2 plate CXIV.
there was such an sword with an khanda hilt descr. as an 16.th.ct. sword from utar pradesh. in hindu arms and ritual you can also see such an pahari sword but only with an pouluar hilt from the end of the 18.th. ct. i think these sword was made as an realy fighting weapon. the blade is stought, with an strong point.the lenght over all is 93cm, the blade is 76cm, wide before the bulged 5cm and the diameter from teh bulged is 10cm.
i know not much over the history from these word. i don´t also know how old is it. i think it isn´t from the 19.th ct. the most pahari swords i´ve seen before was from these time, but i think the mounted hilt is older and i think it is in the original condition. the glue between the hilt and the blade shows very old an original. what think you over these sword? i hope someone can tell me more!!

dralin23 · 19th August 2008, 08:21 PM

more pictures...
i forgot to tell , i can´t found any pattern from watered steel at the blade. i think it is "only" steel. i proof it if it is wotz ore also if it is welded damscus steel.

ariel · 19th August 2008, 11:57 PM

Isn't it called Pahari? Very nice, just a pity that it was so overcleaned. I suspect there were lavish decorations on the "hood" part of the "cobra", but these were wiped out.
Always a tough decision whether to remove the rust and patina to a "high gloss" or not....

dralin23 · 20th August 2008, 04:58 AM

hi ariel
yes i have cleaned it, so i have also removed the old " patina" under these patination was also small rustparts. you can see the pittings at the blade. at one small part from the blade are these rustpittings very deep. i hope it is stoped now. the next reason was, i hoped that these sword like all older weapons from india was made from watered steel and i would like see these pattern at the surface. there was not any decoration at the bulbus before the cleaning. i know the newer cobra swords was rich overlaid with gold koftgari but i think these swords are not made for fighting. i think these swords was only made for representation.

Tatyana Dianova · 20th August 2008, 08:56 PM

Stefan has raised an interesting question: were all old (let’s say pre-19th century) Indian swords forged from Wootz (I add from me: pattern welded) or were some of them forged from plain steel? Maybe a steel imported from Europe (well, we all know of European blades in Indian swords)?

Jim McDougall · 24th August 2008, 06:57 AM

Now I recall these swords Stefan, from discussions last January...you have got an incredible grouping of very important Indian swords there!!! These two interesting examples with the so called 'cobra' blades, one with Hindu basket hilt and the other with Deccani hilt with Afghan paluoar type pommel, are truly anomalies, as discussed in both Elgood and Pant.

Actually the discs at the blade root are not nagan representations, but symbolize the chakra or mandala. As Elgood discusses (p.240) the association with Vishnu in the Sangam age established this symbolism as that of the right to rule, and as an element of these weapons, most likely as you note, ceremonial or court weapons. It is noted further that the Sanskrit word for swords incorporating the chakra is 'ardhachakrakrpana' and as such these are symbols of the chakravartia, or universal king.

The term 'pahaari' is actually a linguistic term, in Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi, referring to the language of the 'mountain people' covering regions from Nepal in the east, to Himachal Pradesh in the west, and one of the regions suggested as possibly that of provenance of these distinct swords. I believe this may be the source for the pahari term referring to these (which is certainly much easier to use in description than that other one!!

Elgood ("Hindu Arms & Ritual", 2004, p.121) notes that in the Vijayanagara state, at its zenith in the 16th century, the Adil Shahi kings saw themselves as Chakravartins, which may of course signify the tradition behind these very symbolic weapons. It is noted also that Pathan nawabs established a subordinate state to Hyderabad in Kurnool (situated in Andhra Pradesh).

The two chakra bladed examples in your collection seem to be of 19th century, though Elgood discusses 17th century example from Bijapur, and notes these are typically catalogued as 19th century in museum references. The blades are both similar in the Vijayanagaran style , with the hilts of course different, one with what appears an 18th century khanda example, the Deccani hilt one (strikingly similar to the one in Elgood, 11.17, p.121) of latter 18th century? The use of wootz in Indian blades in the 19th century virtually ended, especially with Indian government forbidding production of wootz in 1866 in the Western Ghats. It is unclear whether certain centers may have continued, such as Sirohi (in Rajasthan) where heavy watered steel blades of Persian form were made.

As far as the blades in India, the Oriental style watered steel blades though heavy, were often disfavored as they were susceptible to fracture in combat, while the layer weld form was much stronger. Many of the finer old blades, particularly Mughal examples, were of course of beautiful watered steel, while there were certainly regularly forged blades later. The Indian sword blade was highly favored, especially in Arabia, where in Hadhramaut and Yemen a good sword was termed 'muhanned' referring to 'Indian sword'. The Indian blade was regarded next to the Persian, and termed al Hindi ( used in Arabian poetry as a simile for brightness, Elgood, "Arms and Armour of Arabia", p.14).
It would seem unlikely that watered steel blades would be considered 'bright', suggesting high polish. I am aware of many tulwars and some Arabian sa'if with Indian blades of extremely high polish, and dating from 18th and into 19th c. which are of course forged, not of watered steel.

I hope this information will be of some help, and though redundant somewhat to research you have already done, I wanted to add it here for future reference.

Thank you again for sharing these beautiful examples here!
All very best regards,
Jim

19th August 2008, 08:16 PM	#1
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	an other sword from my collection.. i will show you also an other intresting sword from me. it is an pahari sword ore sometime also as an cobra sword known. intresting for me was that it is mounted with an khanda basket hilt. as usual these sword was mounted with an pouluar hilt. an similar sword you can see in the book from g.n. pant. indian arms an armour vol.2 plate CXIV. there was such an sword with an khanda hilt descr. as an 16.th.ct. sword from utar pradesh. in hindu arms and ritual you can also see such an pahari sword but only with an pouluar hilt from the end of the 18.th. ct. i think these sword was made as an realy fighting weapon. the blade is stought, with an strong point.the lenght over all is 93cm, the blade is 76cm, wide before the bulged 5cm and the diameter from teh bulged is 10cm. i know not much over the history from these word. i don´t also know how old is it. i think it isn´t from the 19.th ct. the most pahari swords i´ve seen before was from these time, but i think the mounted hilt is older and i think it is in the original condition. the glue between the hilt and the blade shows very old an original. what think you over these sword? i hope someone can tell me more!! Attached Images

19th August 2008, 08:21 PM	#2
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	more pictures... i forgot to tell , i can´t found any pattern from watered steel at the blade. i think it is "only" steel. i proof it if it is wotz ore also if it is welded damscus steel. Attached Images

19th August 2008, 11:57 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Isn't it called Pahari? Very nice, just a pity that it was so overcleaned. I suspect there were lavish decorations on the "hood" part of the "cobra", but these were wiped out. Always a tough decision whether to remove the rust and patina to a "high gloss" or not....

20th August 2008, 04:58 AM	#4
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	hi ariel yes i have cleaned it, so i have also removed the old " patina" under these patination was also small rustparts. you can see the pittings at the blade. at one small part from the blade are these rustpittings very deep. i hope it is stoped now. the next reason was, i hoped that these sword like all older weapons from india was made from watered steel and i would like see these pattern at the surface. there was not any decoration at the bulbus before the cleaning. i know the newer cobra swords was rich overlaid with gold koftgari but i think these swords are not made for fighting. i think these swords was only made for representation.

20th August 2008, 08:56 PM	#5
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	Stefan has raised an interesting question: were all old (let’s say pre-19th century) Indian swords forged from Wootz (I add from me: pattern welded) or were some of them forged from plain steel? Maybe a steel imported from Europe (well, we all know of European blades in Indian swords)?

24th August 2008, 06:57 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Now I recall these swords Stefan, from discussions last January...you have got an incredible grouping of very important Indian swords there!!! These two interesting examples with the so called 'cobra' blades, one with Hindu basket hilt and the other with Deccani hilt with Afghan paluoar type pommel, are truly anomalies, as discussed in both Elgood and Pant. Actually the discs at the blade root are not nagan representations, but symbolize the chakra or mandala. As Elgood discusses (p.240) the association with Vishnu in the Sangam age established this symbolism as that of the right to rule, and as an element of these weapons, most likely as you note, ceremonial or court weapons. It is noted further that the Sanskrit word for swords incorporating the chakra is 'ardhachakrakrpana' and as such these are symbols of the chakravartia, or universal king. The term 'pahaari' is actually a linguistic term, in Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi, referring to the language of the 'mountain people' covering regions from Nepal in the east, to Himachal Pradesh in the west, and one of the regions suggested as possibly that of provenance of these distinct swords. I believe this may be the source for the pahari term referring to these (which is certainly much easier to use in description than that other one!! Elgood ("Hindu Arms & Ritual", 2004, p.121) notes that in the Vijayanagara state, at its zenith in the 16th century, the Adil Shahi kings saw themselves as Chakravartins, which may of course signify the tradition behind these very symbolic weapons. It is noted also that Pathan nawabs established a subordinate state to Hyderabad in Kurnool (situated in Andhra Pradesh). The two chakra bladed examples in your collection seem to be of 19th century, though Elgood discusses 17th century example from Bijapur, and notes these are typically catalogued as 19th century in museum references. The blades are both similar in the Vijayanagaran style , with the hilts of course different, one with what appears an 18th century khanda example, the Deccani hilt one (strikingly similar to the one in Elgood, 11.17, p.121) of latter 18th century? The use of wootz in Indian blades in the 19th century virtually ended, especially with Indian government forbidding production of wootz in 1866 in the Western Ghats. It is unclear whether certain centers may have continued, such as Sirohi (in Rajasthan) where heavy watered steel blades of Persian form were made. As far as the blades in India, the Oriental style watered steel blades though heavy, were often disfavored as they were susceptible to fracture in combat, while the layer weld form was much stronger. Many of the finer old blades, particularly Mughal examples, were of course of beautiful watered steel, while there were certainly regularly forged blades later. The Indian sword blade was highly favored, especially in Arabia, where in Hadhramaut and Yemen a good sword was termed 'muhanned' referring to 'Indian sword'. The Indian blade was regarded next to the Persian, and termed al Hindi ( used in Arabian poetry as a simile for brightness, Elgood, "Arms and Armour of Arabia", p.14). It would seem unlikely that watered steel blades would be considered 'bright', suggesting high polish. I am aware of many tulwars and some Arabian sa'if with Indian blades of extremely high polish, and dating from 18th and into 19th c. which are of course forged, not of watered steel. I hope this information will be of some help, and though redundant somewhat to research you have already done, I wanted to add it here for future reference. Thank you again for sharing these beautiful examples here! All very best regards, Jim