Scottish Late Medieval 'Claidheamh - mor' Swords

Matchlock · 13th April 2009, 05:11 PM

So here's to you, Jim,

And of course to lesser mortals - I like Brian's expression!

This I photographed at the British Museum London in 1997. The blade is struck on the forte with an unidentified maker's mark similiar to those used by medieval stonemasons, and two crowned Pi marks.

Please note the pierced Gothic quatrefoil (Vierpass) decoration at the ends of the quillons which also accounts for the dating "early 16th century".

Michael

Matchlock · 13th April 2009, 05:47 PM

Sold to benefit the Great Hall Armory display at Warwick Castle, Tom Del Mar, Dec 12, 2007, lot 279, GBP 240,000 - despite the fact that it was not preserved in original condition.

So check your savings before bidding.

Michael

Jim McDougall · 13th April 2009, 07:24 PM

GASP!!! What a beauty!
Thank you so much Michael,
I think there are only about ten actual claymore's in existence so the price is not at all surprising.
One of my favorite paintings is of one of the MacDougall clansmen holding an identical one of these, and if I recall the same quatrefoil quillon terminals.

Outstanding note on the marking reflecting the practice of placing such marks associated to those of stone masons. I have always been puzzled by the term 'pi' for those curious little marks. Have you seen any additional examples with that reference?

On Brians note, I'm waaay puzzled....I thought I was a mere mortal too....have I missed a memo somewhere?

All the best,
Jim

Matchlock · 15th April 2009, 05:31 PM

I hope that these make the relationship to the maker's mark on the British Museum Claymore evident.

Michael

Jim McDougall · 15th April 2009, 05:56 PM

I see what you mean Michael, it really is interesting how closely related these types of identifying symbols were to those used by armourers and blade makers. Are these characters runes ? or a grouping of actual symbols? Perhaps the alphabetic character was initially the individuals initial, then personalized by adding lines or added deviation as others shared the same initial.

All the best,
Jim

ward · 17th April 2009, 02:40 AM

Out of my area here but those marks look like Tatar tamga brands too.
I know the Poles adopted them, not sure how far west they got but
probably a realtionship there somewhere.

BerberDagger · 24th October 2011, 05:39 PM

this ... thank you

Matchlock · 25th October 2011, 02:09 AM

Hi Berber Dagger,

I copied those masons' signs from this site:

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=h...:0&tx=34&ty=36

You should also refer to these links though:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/marialu...7621224565943/

http://www.burgenseite.com/stmz/stmz_txt.htm

http://www.google.de/search?q=mittel...w=1129&bih=675

Could we please see and learn more about your sword?

Best,
Michael

13th April 2009, 05:11 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Scottish Late Medieval 'Claidheamh - mor' Swords So here's to you, Jim, And of course to lesser mortals - I like Brian's expression! This I photographed at the British Museum London in 1997. The blade is struck on the forte with an unidentified maker's mark similiar to those used by medieval stonemasons, and two crowned Pi marks. Please note the pierced Gothic quatrefoil (Vierpass) decoration at the ends of the quillons which also accounts for the dating "early 16th century". Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 13th April 2009 at 06:27 PM.

13th April 2009, 05:47 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The Warwick Castle Claymore Sold to benefit the Great Hall Armory display at Warwick Castle, Tom Del Mar, Dec 12, 2007, lot 279, GBP 240,000 - despite the fact that it was not preserved in original condition. So check your savings before bidding. Michael Attached Images

15th April 2009, 05:31 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	15th Century Stone Masons' Signs I hope that these make the relationship to the maker's mark on the British Museum Claymore evident. Michael Attached Images

24th October 2011, 05:39 PM	#7
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	this this ... thank you Attached Images Last edited by BerberDagger; 24th October 2011 at 06:19 PM.

13th April 2009, 07:24 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	GASP!!! What a beauty! Thank you so much Michael, I think there are only about ten actual claymore's in existence so the price is not at all surprising. One of my favorite paintings is of one of the MacDougall clansmen holding an identical one of these, and if I recall the same quatrefoil quillon terminals. Outstanding note on the marking reflecting the practice of placing such marks associated to those of stone masons. I have always been puzzled by the term 'pi' for those curious little marks. Have you seen any additional examples with that reference? On Brians note, I'm waaay puzzled....I thought I was a mere mortal too....have I missed a memo somewhere? All the best, Jim

15th April 2009, 05:56 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	I see what you mean Michael, it really is interesting how closely related these types of identifying symbols were to those used by armourers and blade makers. Are these characters runes ? or a grouping of actual symbols? Perhaps the alphabetic character was initially the individuals initial, then personalized by adding lines or added deviation as others shared the same initial. All the best, Jim

17th April 2009, 02:40 AM	#6
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Out of my area here but those marks look like Tatar tamga brands too. I know the Poles adopted them, not sure how far west they got but probably a realtionship there somewhere.

25th October 2011, 02:09 AM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Berber Dagger, I copied those masons' signs from this site: http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=h...:0&tx=34&ty=36 You should also refer to these links though: http://www.flickr.com/photos/marialu...7621224565943/ http://www.burgenseite.com/stmz/stmz_txt.htm http://www.google.de/search?q=mittel...w=1129&bih=675 Could we please see and learn more about your sword? Best, Michael