small indonésian knife for identification

[weapons 27]

can you help me identify these four Indonesian knives
the number 1 measurement 9 inch long, the blade 5 inch
number 2 measure 7.5 inch long ,the blade 4, 5 inch
number 3 measuring 6.5 inch long ,the blade 3.5 inch
number 4 measure 8.5 inch long, the blade 5 inch

Thank you to all

[VANDOO]

#1 & #2 ARE WHAT I HAVE ALWAYS REFERED TO AS BADE BADE MOSTLY MALAYSIAN IN ORIGIN IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY. THE OTHER TWO I HAVE NO IDEA?

[weapons 27]

ok vandoo thank

[weapons 27]

thank detleff

I think that the last two are not common ?


ANTOINE

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by weapons 27

thank detleff

I think that the last two are not common ?


ANTOINE

Yet common, this are utility knifes from Sumatra.

[kai]

Hello Antoine,

The first badik looks Javanese to me; not so sure about the other...

Post-WW2 examples of these utility knives are not so rarely seen. I'd argue that these are not siraui (neither one nor the other type associated with this name).

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Hello,

the first two are badiks and the other both are sirauis. Search with this keywords and you will find similar knifes.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

For badik or bade bade like Vandoo write look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=badik

For siraui look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=siraui

[mohd]

Originally Posted by Sajen

.. the first two are badiks and the other both are sirauis ..

Agree with Detlef, the first two are Badiks and the last two are Sirauis.

Originally Posted by VANDOO

#1 & #2 ARE WHAT I HAVE ALWAYS REFERED TO AS BADE BADE MOSTLY MALAYSIAN IN ORIGIN IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY ..

IMVHO the term Bade Bade is either not in used any longer or it never used at all but a misspelling of the earlier orientalist. I believe the term Bade Bade is only found in the old text written by orientalist or it might be found in the net but in websites belong to people from the west!

For example, refer to the following picture!



All the naming confusion are there and the misspelling that doesn't comply with the correct pronunciation are also exist there!
If you show the the knife in the above picture to any Malay or Sumatran or Javanese then they will simply say that it is a Rencong (i.e. pronounce as REN + CHONG).
IMVHO the blade doesn't simply become antique just because it is spelled with the old unused spelling!
And IMVHO I'm not simply become an expert just by using the old unused spelling for those blades, am I?
I raised this issue here because I found out that there are so many wrong or weird spelling that are not in used any longer exist in discussion about the Southeast Asian blades.

mohd

[kai]

Hello Mohd,

IMVHO the term Bade Bade is either not in used any longer or it never used at all but a misspelling of the earlier orientalist. I believe the term Bade Bade is only found in the old text written by orientalist or it might be found in the net but in websites belong to people from the west!

I guess a good case can be made that bade is just a spelling variant for badik. As the early western visitors (traders, missionaries, physicians, scientists, bureaucrats, soldiers, sailors, etc.) spoke many different European languages (and also had varying linguistic talent) early transliterations are bound to vary (a lot).

Even with a standardized transliteration system the many local SEA languages/dialects will yield differently transliterated spellings (even if the name used has a common origin while many names seem to vary from one village to the next). A name is just something people agree on to ease communication and in many cases it is pretty clear which names are nowadays most widely used (like badik and rencong) while others will go extinct in a generation or two (bade bade); OTOH, some established but erraneous names like parang nabur will have to be replaced (beladah/belabang). However, I believe we need to be careful not to throw the blade out with the coconut water if different spellings are due to different languages/dialects or different names reflect varying local use, respectively.

If you show the the knife in the above picture to any Malay or Sumatran or Javanese then they will simply say that it is a Rencong (i.e. pronounce as REN + CHONG).

While modern Indonesian may be the lingua franka in many parts of the archipelago today (as Malay used to be), there may be a case for the use of local languages/spellings if the traditional use of a blade was geographically/culturally confined. In the case of rencong this would be Aceh, Gayo, as well as Alas; it could be argued that there was a time in recent memory when utilizing the modern Indonesian transliteration was about the least culturally sensitive name one could use for an Aceh blade...

IMVHO the blade doesn't simply become antique just because it is spelled with the old unused spelling!
And IMVHO I'm not simply become an expert just by using the old unused spelling for those blades, am I?

Shhh, don't spoil our trade secrets!

Regards,
Kai

[Royston]

How about Buyo ?

Roy

[kai]

Hello Roy,

How about Buyo ?

I can't remember seeing this name before. Where did you find this one?


For the time being and unless we can come up with a more specific and well-supported local name (or names considering the many languages and ethnic groups involved) for these Sumatran utility blades, I believe the most suitable name to be piso raut (or pisau rotan in modern Indonesian parlor) as this is the only name associated with this Sumatran knife I've come across in an early source (piso raoet in old Dutch-Indo spelling). Will try to post a scan later...

Very similar blade shapes are utilized throughout SE Asia as utility knives, especially for cutting rattan; sometimes the hilt is elongated (e. g. those piso ra(o)ut carried with mandau on Borneo).

Regards,
Kai

[Royston]

Kai / Weapons 27

If you look at a post of mine from April 2008 ( I don't know how to attach links but a search for buyo will bring it up ) I posted a similar knife.

Cheers
Roy

[Rick]

The first and only time I saw these knives classified as 'Buyo' was in Stone's Glossary .

I don't believe I have ever seen the term used elsewhere .

[kai]

Hello Roy,

If you look at a post of mine from April 2008 ( I don't know how to attach links but a search for buyo will bring it up ) I posted a similar knife.

Just cut&paste the link and hit submit reply. (There are more fancy options but this will certainly do.)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6259

And Filipino/Visayan varieties:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11865

And also the Lumad version Sang(g)i should be mentioned, too.

Regards,
Kai