16th Century Style Broad Sword

Cathey · 21st July 2020, 04:14 AM

Hi Guys

I am in the process of cataloguing a friend’s collection, and among his swords is this one which was sold to him many years ago as medieval. I personally have no idea with this one, the orb and cross look original to the blade but the squiggly scrip looks out of place. The pommel is also unusual. Any thought on what this actually is or how I might best describe it would be gratefully received. At this stage I have just listed it as 16th Century Style Broad Sword.

Overall Length: 43 ½” 100.5 cm
Blade length: 36 ½” 92.5 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ¾” 4.4 cm
Hilt widest point: 6 ½” 6.6 cm
Inside grip length: 4 ¾” 2.2 cm
Marks, etc.: Orb and Cross, squiggly scrip starts about 3” below Orb and Cross mark.

Cheers Cathey

Helleri · 21st July 2020, 05:08 AM

croix fourchée on one side of pommel and bend shield with two points on the bend, on nice little rounded square/oval engraving plates... feels very french, maybe 14th c. same for the quillons? And maybe you get a somewhat long handle for the sword length with a concave bevel like that that early? Just guessing here. Not sure about the blade. Feels off. Perhaps a married piece?

Yvain · 21st July 2020, 06:26 PM

As Helleri said, the shape and the quality of the blade look really off. All the real medieval swords I have seen and handled until now had nice clear and crisp lines, and that wobbly fuller just looks wrong in my opinion.

EDIT : to add, that top knob on the pommel looks really weird (very different from what can be found on some XIVth, XVth century swords). However, that pommel shape, described as type H1 by Oakeshott do exist, and, according to him, was used between 1350 and the first quarter of the XVth century.

Philip · 22nd July 2020, 03:13 AM

I tend to agree with both of you, my visual impression matches the points you raise.

Isn't that "bottleneck" profile of the grip more appropriate on the longer, "bastard" or hand-and-half hilts, and particularly those from the German lands?

The cross and orb symbol is typically German, 16th cent.

The fuller at the axis of the blade is quite irregular (not a match to the quality of the hilt) even by the less-than-perfect standards of pre-industrial production cutlery. However, the blade shows signs of age and apparently heavy use too since the edges have the irregularity associated with extensive sharpening, with heavy grinding locally to remove deep notches.

The tang button makes me suspicious and only helps cement my suspicion that the sword may be a composite.

Philip · 22nd July 2020, 03:16 AM

Cathey, just out of curiosity what is the point of balance on the blade? Could you please post images showing the tang peening, and the blade-to-crossguard fit?

Yvain · 22nd July 2020, 10:26 AM

I just got an idea, does it looks like something was sawed off the guard ? Or is there even some small irregularities or differences in patina and polish ?

I think it might actually be a kaskara rehilted as a medieval like sword in the XIXth, XXth century. The shape of the blade and of the guard (excluding the sawed off parts, middle langets and flared ends of the quillons), and the fact that the guard is made out of bronze (which isn't unheard of in medieval swords, but is unusual) are consistent with this hypothesis. It would explain the shape and finish of the blade (maybe even the inscription, perhaps Amharic ?) and the general proportions of the sword (guard too short, and weird blade length for an allegedly XIVth century one hander). The pommel, nut, and grip probably are of modern making.

21st July 2020, 04:14 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	16th Century Style Broad Sword Hi Guys I am in the process of cataloguing a friend’s collection, and among his swords is this one which was sold to him many years ago as medieval. I personally have no idea with this one, the orb and cross look original to the blade but the squiggly scrip looks out of place. The pommel is also unusual. Any thought on what this actually is or how I might best describe it would be gratefully received. At this stage I have just listed it as 16th Century Style Broad Sword. Overall Length: 43 ½” 100.5 cm Blade length: 36 ½” 92.5 cm Blade widest point: 1 ¾” 4.4 cm Hilt widest point: 6 ½” 6.6 cm Inside grip length: 4 ¾” 2.2 cm Marks, etc.: Orb and Cross, squiggly scrip starts about 3” below Orb and Cross mark. Cheers Cathey Attached Images

21st July 2020, 05:08 AM	#2
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	croix fourchée on one side of pommel and bend shield with two points on the bend, on nice little rounded square/oval engraving plates... feels very french, maybe 14th c. same for the quillons? And maybe you get a somewhat long handle for the sword length with a concave bevel like that that early? Just guessing here. Not sure about the blade. Feels off. Perhaps a married piece?

21st July 2020, 06:26 PM	#3
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 178	As Helleri said, the shape and the quality of the blade look really off. All the real medieval swords I have seen and handled until now had nice clear and crisp lines, and that wobbly fuller just looks wrong in my opinion. EDIT : to add, that top knob on the pommel looks really weird (very different from what can be found on some XIVth, XVth century swords). However, that pommel shape, described as type H1 by Oakeshott do exist, and, according to him, was used between 1350 and the first quarter of the XVth century.

22nd July 2020, 03:13 AM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	I tend to agree with both of you, my visual impression matches the points you raise. Isn't that "bottleneck" profile of the grip more appropriate on the longer, "bastard" or hand-and-half hilts, and particularly those from the German lands? The cross and orb symbol is typically German, 16th cent. The fuller at the axis of the blade is quite irregular (not a match to the quality of the hilt) even by the less-than-perfect standards of pre-industrial production cutlery. However, the blade shows signs of age and apparently heavy use too since the edges have the irregularity associated with extensive sharpening, with heavy grinding locally to remove deep notches. The tang button makes me suspicious and only helps cement my suspicion that the sword may be a composite.

22nd July 2020, 03:16 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Cathey, just out of curiosity what is the point of balance on the blade? Could you please post images showing the tang peening, and the blade-to-crossguard fit?

22nd July 2020, 10:26 AM	#6
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 178	I just got an idea, does it looks like something was sawed off the guard ? Or is there even some small irregularities or differences in patina and polish ? I think it might actually be a kaskara rehilted as a medieval like sword in the XIXth, XXth century. The shape of the blade and of the guard (excluding the sawed off parts, middle langets and flared ends of the quillons), and the fact that the guard is made out of bronze (which isn't unheard of in medieval swords, but is unusual) are consistent with this hypothesis. It would explain the shape and finish of the blade (maybe even the inscription, perhaps Amharic ?) and the general proportions of the sword (guard too short, and weird blade length for an allegedly XIVth century one hander). The pommel, nut, and grip probably are of modern making.