Is this Sham Wootz?? On a Wahabi Jambiya??

archer · 13th March 2012, 08:56 PM

Awhile back I posted this Jambiya and used the sellers photos, opinion was it is Shear Steel. I found information about this type of steel but photos seemed scarce.
I've included some better photos of the blade and I'm very curious to hear your opinions. Photos from M. M. Khorasanis Arms and Armor from Iran, show Persian Sham and Striped Sham. This blade starts out grainy the gradually goes linear, maybe due to scarfed billets?

Very recently I found that there was an exceptionally nice Jambiya, that has a Persian wootz blade http://www.antigaarabia.com/uploads/102-103.pdf
Well this got my interest going again. I must be overrating my blade or as has been asked before. Are there others lurking that have been overlooked??
So, please lets your opinions. Thank you in advance, Steve

The previous post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Wootz+Wahabi

ALEX · 14th March 2012, 10:51 AM

Steve,
You bring a good topic. Visually, it does look like sham, and the opinions will vary. My personal opinion is toward layered or shear steel. Sham is one of the wootz patterns, and based on complexity and type, I'd not attribute this particular pattern to wootz. Some references above are M. Khorasani's opinions, and leave some room for discussion...

Lew · 14th March 2012, 12:09 PM

What I find funny is that the pattern fades towards the end near where the blade meets the hilt and there is a defined edge which could be some type of faux etch

? Could be shear steel or blister steel or even some type of local carbonized wrought iron?

AJ1356 · 14th March 2012, 02:04 PM

Not really familiar with this but Shaam also could be written as Sham is the ancient name for Syria (where Damascuss is) would it be that is one name for Damascuss patern? Or it could just mean fake

Richard Furrer · 14th March 2012, 03:15 PM

I would say it is not crucible steel, but something else.
I would say the same to several of those book photos as well.

It is still very nice.
Ric

archer · 14th March 2012, 07:00 PM

Ric, Your input is always valued your hands on experience in making and forging shear and crucible steels gives first hand expertise. Your comment that this is something else, has impact. Does the apparent pattern loss Lew mentions give us a clue?

Alex, Your wootz opinions have always been of interest. This could be Mechanically produced. I've included a couple of photos where I thought to
be the result of scarfing. the thicker pattern at the hilt may be the result of
extra forging required in shaping the hilt vs. the finer lines toward the blade
tip. I'm guessing that this pattern was visible even unetched.

Lew, Your point about the disappearance of the pattern in the hilt area may
well be a clue to how the blade was made. Most etched Jambiyas show a V
of some sort where they were quenched in tempering. I've included odd lines
on My other Wahabite Jambiya and a photo of one with typical V but the pattern etched again towards the hilt???

AJ, Your correct Sham is a lesser quality Crucible steel and no doubt the root for the English word " sham". Sham Shir always gives Me pause. Are you serving in Afghanistan now?

Thank you all for your interest and great input.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th March 2012, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

Awhile back I posted this Jambiya and used the sellers photos, opinion was it is Shear Steel. I found information about this type of steel but photos seemed scarce.
I've included some better photos of the blade and I'm very curious to hear your opinions. Photos from M. M. Khorasanis Arms and Armor from Iran, show Persian Sham and Striped Sham. This blade starts out grainy the gradually goes linear, maybe due to scarfed billets?

Very recently I found that there was an exceptionally nice Jambiya, that has a Persian wootz blade http://www.antigaarabia.com/uploads/102-103.pdf
Well this got my interest going again. I must be overrating my blade or as has been asked before. Are there others lurking that have been overlooked??
So, please lets your opinions. Thank you in advance, Steve

The previous post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Wootz+Wahabi

Salaams archer ~ Wootz is not my speciality but...Shams? That means sun in arabic and if related to Shamshir is the Safavid weapon first brought to Irans Royal Court equivalent of a blademakers guild..by a Damascus master blade maker. I have the details somewhere...Therefor if shams is the eastern word it means something different as the english word would indicate fake or false no? So we have a terminology situation. The blade looks ok to me ... Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Lew · 15th March 2012, 08:28 AM

Archer

The only way to be sure is putting it under the microscope so without it in hand we really can't be sure

. I studied the making of pattern welded steel for quite a number of years before I went rogue and started collecting antique pieces and your dagger does remind me of simple case hardened wrought iron if not the surface was just acid etched

.

AJ1356 · 15th March 2012, 01:32 PM

Archer, the word shamshir شمشیر just meants sword in Farsi, to my knowledge it is not a combination of sham and shir, shir شیر however by itself mean lion. Sham شم by itself does not mean anything, Shaam شام on the other hand besides the anciant name for Syria, is also referred to the time right after sunset, or also when darkness covers the sky. I know for sure Damascuss pattern swords were called شمشیر دمشق swords from Damascuss. Yeah I am deployed in Afghanistan right now.

A.alnakkas · 15th March 2012, 01:58 PM

Interesting information, AJ. I think the term "Sham" for the Sham pattern is refering to what is now Syria indeed.

(off-topic: I always thought AJ is Afghan!)

ALEX · 15th March 2012, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

Archer, the word shamshir شمشیر just meants sword in Farsi, to my knowledge it is not a combination of sham and shir, shir شیر however by itself mean lion. Sham شم by itself does not mean anything, Shaam شام on the other hand besides the anciant name for Syria, is also referred to the time right after sunset, or also when darkness covers the sky. I know for sure Damascuss pattern swords were called شمشیر دمشق swords from Damascuss. Yeah I am deployed in Afghanistan right now.

here's complete reference:-) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scimitar
then click on Shamshir link.

Persian/Farsi and Arabic are different languages:-) Shamsheer means "lion's tale" in Farsi. Another reference - a possible origin from the Persian shim- or shamshir. This, in turn, is said to be derived from Middle Persian "shafshēr" meaning; "lion's claw" (sham = claw, shir = lion), in reference to the sword's curve. However, this is likely a folk etymology, as the word is already attested in Middle persian with the meaning "sword".
Now, back to the Sham discussion:-)

spiral · 16th March 2012, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Archer

The only way to be sure is putting it under the microscope so without it in hand we really can't be sure

. I studied the making of pattern welded steel for quite a number of years before I went rogue and started collecting antique pieces and your dagger does remind me of simple case hardened wrought iron if not the surface was just acid etched

.

must say my intial reaction is also case hardend, heavily forged old wrought iron, {pre. mass production.} seen the same linear appearence before in such material..

Of course that doesnt mean other iron,steel,alloy mixes couldnt have the same appearence.

Spiral

Lew · 18th March 2012, 01:38 PM

Ric

I saw your YouTube video on shear steel if you could please provide us with some finished examples etched of course

It may clarify things a bit more.

Thanks

Lew

archer · 18th March 2012, 05:32 PM

Again I thank you all for your incite and information I book marked the links for future reference. AJ, thanks for your service, hoping you all catch freedom real birds soon.
I'm so far over my head with this etch on the second Dharia and haven't a clue what kind of steel this is. dilute Phosphoric allows me to see some sort of pattern. When I try very diluted Ferric chloride I quickly get dark staining on most of inner and outer edges, hardening? It is all low definition and weird spider web to all most palm print like. Here are a few photos , after a bit more polishing I think this blade likely didn't have the polish needed to etch well. The opaque and cloudy areas are disappearing. another light etch should bring out a more stable pattern.

13th March 2012, 08:56 PM	#1
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Is this Sham Wootz?? On a Wahabi Jambiya?? Awhile back I posted this Jambiya and used the sellers photos, opinion was it is Shear Steel. I found information about this type of steel but photos seemed scarce. I've included some better photos of the blade and I'm very curious to hear your opinions. Photos from M. M. Khorasanis Arms and Armor from Iran, show Persian Sham and Striped Sham. This blade starts out grainy the gradually goes linear, maybe due to scarfed billets? Very recently I found that there was an exceptionally nice Jambiya, that has a Persian wootz blade http://www.antigaarabia.com/uploads/102-103.pdf Well this got my interest going again. I must be overrating my blade or as has been asked before. Are there others lurking that have been overlooked?? So, please lets your opinions. Thank you in advance, Steve The previous post: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Wootz+Wahabi Attached Images Last edited by archer; 13th March 2012 at 09:08 PM.

14th March 2012, 12:09 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	What I find funny is that the pattern fades towards the end near where the blade meets the hilt and there is a defined edge which could be some type of faux etch ? Could be shear steel or blister steel or even some type of local carbonized wrought iron? Last edited by Lew; 14th March 2012 at 12:19 PM.

14th March 2012, 07:00 PM	#6
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Eye opening feedback Thanks Ric, Your input is always valued your hands on experience in making and forging shear and crucible steels gives first hand expertise. Your comment that this is something else, has impact. Does the apparent pattern loss Lew mentions give us a clue? Alex, Your wootz opinions have always been of interest. This could be Mechanically produced. I've included a couple of photos where I thought to be the result of scarfing. the thicker pattern at the hilt may be the result of extra forging required in shaping the hilt vs. the finer lines toward the blade tip. I'm guessing that this pattern was visible even unetched. Lew, Your point about the disappearance of the pattern in the hilt area may well be a clue to how the blade was made. Most etched Jambiyas show a V of some sort where they were quenched in tempering. I've included odd lines on My other Wahabite Jambiya and a photo of one with typical V but the pattern etched again towards the hilt??? AJ, Your correct Sham is a lesser quality Crucible steel and no doubt the root for the English word " sham". Sham Shir always gives Me pause. Are you serving in Afghanistan now? Thank you all for your interest and great input. Attached Images

18th March 2012, 05:32 PM	#14
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	More Info Again I thank you all for your incite and information I book marked the links for future reference. AJ, thanks for your service, hoping you all catch freedom real birds soon. I'm so far over my head with this etch on the second Dharia and haven't a clue what kind of steel this is. dilute Phosphoric allows me to see some sort of pattern. When I try very diluted Ferric chloride I quickly get dark staining on most of inner and outer edges, hardening? It is all low definition and weird spider web to all most palm print like. Here are a few photos , after a bit more polishing I think this blade likely didn't have the polish needed to etch well. The opaque and cloudy areas are disappearing. another light etch should bring out a more stable pattern. Attached Images Last edited by archer; 19th March 2012 at 02:28 AM.

14th March 2012, 10:51 AM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Steve, You bring a good topic. Visually, it does look like sham, and the opinions will vary. My personal opinion is toward layered or shear steel. Sham is one of the wootz patterns, and based on complexity and type, I'd not attribute this particular pattern to wootz. Some references above are M. Khorasani's opinions, and leave some room for discussion...

14th March 2012, 02:04 PM	#4
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	Not really familiar with this but Shaam also could be written as Sham is the ancient name for Syria (where Damascuss is) would it be that is one name for Damascuss patern? Or it could just mean fake

14th March 2012, 03:15 PM	#5
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	I would say it is not crucible steel, but something else. I would say the same to several of those book photos as well. It is still very nice. Ric

15th March 2012, 08:28 AM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Archer The only way to be sure is putting it under the microscope so without it in hand we really can't be sure . I studied the making of pattern welded steel for quite a number of years before I went rogue and started collecting antique pieces and your dagger does remind me of simple case hardened wrought iron if not the surface was just acid etched .

15th March 2012, 01:32 PM	#9
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	Archer, the word shamshir شمشیر just meants sword in Farsi, to my knowledge it is not a combination of sham and shir, shir شیر however by itself mean lion. Sham شم by itself does not mean anything, Shaam شام on the other hand besides the anciant name for Syria, is also referred to the time right after sunset, or also when darkness covers the sky. I know for sure Damascuss pattern swords were called شمشیر دمشق swords from Damascuss. Yeah I am deployed in Afghanistan right now.

15th March 2012, 01:58 PM	#10
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Interesting information, AJ. I think the term "Sham" for the Sham pattern is refering to what is now Syria indeed. (off-topic: I always thought AJ is Afghan!)

18th March 2012, 01:38 PM	#13
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Ric I saw your YouTube video on shear steel if you could please provide us with some finished examples etched of course It may clarify things a bit more. Thanks Lew