ID on dagger ?

hbhansen · 4th January 2012, 08:23 PM

Hi again.

I have had this one for some time, but actually don't know what kind of a dagger it is, where it's from and how old it is...
The structure of the blade is quite interresting, but I can't see if it's laminated.
Anyone know the stamps ?
Is the handle bone or ivory ?

Thanks
Henrik

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th January 2012, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbhansen

Hi again.

I have had this one for some time, but actually don't know what kind of a dagger it is, where it's from and how old it is...
The structure of the blade is quite interresting, but I can't see if it's laminated.
Anyone know the stamps ?
Is the handle bone or ivory ?

Thanks
Henrik

Salaams Henrik,
This looks like a Scandanavian hunting knife... possibly Finland "Puuko." Maybe ivory tusk from Walrus or possibly Reindeer Antler?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

delor · 8th January 2012, 07:12 PM

The blade shows no sign of being laminated. It has visible traces of the forging process, as the steel as been almost not grinded on the "rear" side of the blade.
The handle seems to be ivory. Would it be possible to see a photo of the rear part of the handle ? (the inside material of some tusks have a very characteristic aspect).
Regards,
Bernard

chregu · 8th January 2012, 08:10 PM

hello together
me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife.
The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from.
short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike!
The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference!
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin?
Gruss Chregu

Gavin Nugent · 8th January 2012, 09:21 PM

African gets my vote, I have seen this confirmed but I can't recall...Algeria?

Gav

Dom · 9th January 2012, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Algeria?

Hi Gav
forget Algeria, from near or far ... no chance

and, I dunno from where it's come from ...

à +

Dom

Gavin Nugent · 10th November 2014, 12:45 AM

oops

Stan S. · 8th January 2012, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chregu

Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin.

I don't mean to derail but I am somewhat disturbed by the above sentence... Perhaps something was lost in translation?

Iain · 8th January 2012, 10:34 PM

Stan, that's a literal translation from German for scabbard, it's happened to me as well using Google translate.

laEspadaAncha · 9th January 2012, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

I don't mean to derail but I am somewhat disturbed by the above sentence... Perhaps something was lost in translation?

It recalls a certain faulty phrasebook: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYH0pBZdaes

hbhansen · 9th January 2012, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chregu

hello together
me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife.
The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from.
short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike!
The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference!
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin?
Gruss Chregu

That's very interesting ! Theres no doubt in my mind, that these knifes is from the same region. Just a shame that the origin of the knife is lost

Nice knife, thanks for showing.

hbhansen · 9th January 2012, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chregu

hello together
me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife.
The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from.
short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike!
The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference!
Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin?
Gruss Chregu

Hi Chregu
Does the size match ?
Best
Henrik

Gavin Nugent · 14th January 2012, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

The scabbard strap and clasp arrangement on Chregu's example is again, close to those seen on 20th century British khukri. Same kind of belt attachment.

Emanuel

Please provide an image

The same suspension arrangement is seen on the knife at the bottom post number 35

Also the Turkish knife of similar construction in post 16

I am sure countless other types of knife too....

Edit; Thanks for the update with images, certainly only one of the Kukri sheaths are suspended in this manner of the knife in question, the others are not....can't help but remember my sold item stock s117, it is frog suspended, not stictched to the body of the sheath....credits or asking permission to use copyright images would be appreciated....

Gav

delor · 14th January 2012, 09:00 AM

I notice that one side of the blade is "raw". You still can see all the surface asperities caused by the forging process. This is fashionable these days, but it wasn't in the ancient times. So it must be a rather common working knife and the one who did it didn't pay much attention to the aesthetics aspects.
There are some bends on the edge and the tip. I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to me to be made of a good quality steel. This leads me to the same conclusion : must have been a rather "common" knife. Could also be some tourist craft.

hbhansen · 9th January 2012, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

The blade shows no sign of being laminated. It has visible traces of the forging process, as the steel as been almost not grinded on the "rear" side of the blade.
The handle seems to be ivory. Would it be possible to see a photo of the rear part of the handle ? (the inside material of some tusks have a very characteristic aspect).
Regards,
Bernard

Hi Bernard
Here are some additional pictures, hope they are useful.
Best
Henrik

delor · 10th January 2012, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbhansen

Hi Bernard
Here are some additional pictures, hope they are useful.
Best
Henrik

Thanks Henrik,
it confirms the handle is not walrus ivory. Probably elephant ivory as already stated.
The marks on ivory look Afghan or Balkan to me.
Regards,
Bernard

hbhansen · 10th January 2012, 08:16 PM

Thank you all for your answers. I read the links to the earlier threads an see alot of similarity. I've got a lot to work with now.

Gavin Nugent · 2nd February 2012, 04:32 AM

There are similarities here;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832

I also have found some other images to share later.

Gav

The later update....

The knife, although it has no bolster, is a warthog tusk, simple blade and red and black circle work. The pistol shares a butt with a similar style to the knife seen in post 56?...it appears North African...

I think the direction of thought can move back to Africa proper.

I still have a feeling/memory of North Africa, not saying itis right or wrong.
Perhaps, if these were north African, the Kaskara blade in the thread came by way of northern trade...fanciful but not beyond the realm of plausability.

Gav

Emanuel · 9th February 2012, 06:18 AM

Thought I'd add another chopper, originally posted by Tim in his thread. The pictures are from Field Service Antiques. This chopper is clearly from the same region as the knives in question. FSA had labelled it as a 19th century sacrificial sword - ram dao from north India, possibly Assam. The validity of this ID remains to be confirmed...The hilt does bring Burmese treatment to mind so perhaps not too far off.

Emanuel

chregu · 13th April 2012, 09:53 PM

so once again, to refresh this topic!
I found the note on the internet, knife from Burma.
website of a dealer who sells a similar piece.

Richard G · 14th April 2012, 11:42 AM

Thank you Chregu,
Assuming it is not against the rules could you please post directions to the website, so we can check the reference. I'm not saying the dealer is wrong, but there have been so many disparate suggestions as to the origin of these knives I'd like to know why he says it is Burmese.
Best wishes
Richard

Gavin Nugent · 14th April 2012, 01:28 PM

References certainly would add weight to any webpage description...even Bonhams has had these listed as African in the past....but without references....

colin henshaw · 15th April 2012, 04:59 PM

I've seen this type of knife a few times over the years. The construction of the knife itself, and of the sheath, also the decoration, make me clearly feel they are from the northern part of the Indian sub-continent.

Richard G · 19th April 2012, 07:01 PM

Thank you Chegru, I understand. I can see a resemblance to a dha of Henrik's knife, but I'm not sure about mine. But I agree, it is worth investigating.

David R. The blade on my knife, and I think Henrik's, is not so much "unworked" as poorly finished, still showing file marks, and yes the steeel is of poor quality, showing signs of incipient lamination etc.

Colin. I have recently seen a bronze bowl with this dot and circle decoration and with an inscription in what I think is devanagari. I thought this was probably Nepali. Is this what you had in mind when you said "north indian"?
But then I suppose it could have been a Burmese bowl.

Regards
Richard

4th January 2012, 08:23 PM	#1
hbhansen Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Denmark Posts: 89	ID on dagger ? Hi again. I have had this one for some time, but actually don't know what kind of a dagger it is, where it's from and how old it is... The structure of the blade is quite interresting, but I can't see if it's laminated. Anyone know the stamps ? Is the handle bone or ivory ? Thanks Henrik Attached Images

8th January 2012, 08:10 PM	#4
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	hello together me too interested with this question, whence comes this knife. The images come from my piece, had bought it years ago, the dealer did not know where it came from. short time before had seen a similar piece at an antique market, the pieces all look exactly alike! The handle is ivory, very fine grain, whether walrus can not be determined. I know the difference! Scabbard is brown thick leather, covered with a thin skin. I binn not sure sealskin? Gruss Chregu Attached Images Last edited by Lew; 9th January 2012 at 12:41 PM.

2nd February 2012, 04:32 AM	#18
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	There are similarities here; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832 I also have found some other images to share later. Gav The later update.... The knife, although it has no bolster, is a warthog tusk, simple blade and red and black circle work. The pistol shares a butt with a similar style to the knife seen in post 56?...it appears North African... I think the direction of thought can move back to Africa proper. I still have a feeling/memory of North Africa, not saying itis right or wrong. Perhaps, if these were north African, the Kaskara blade in the thread came by way of northern trade...fanciful but not beyond the realm of plausability. Gav Attached Images Last edited by freebooter; 2nd February 2012 at 12:12 PM. Reason: The later update

9th February 2012, 06:18 AM	#19
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thought I'd add another chopper, originally posted by Tim in his thread. The pictures are from Field Service Antiques. This chopper is clearly from the same region as the knives in question. FSA had labelled it as a 19th century sacrificial sword - ram dao from north India, possibly Assam. The validity of this ID remains to be confirmed...The hilt does bring Burmese treatment to mind so perhaps not too far off. Emanuel Attached Images

8th January 2012, 07:12 PM	#3
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	The blade shows no sign of being laminated. It has visible traces of the forging process, as the steel as been almost not grinded on the "rear" side of the blade. The handle seems to be ivory. Would it be possible to see a photo of the rear part of the handle ? (the inside material of some tusks have a very characteristic aspect). Regards, Bernard

8th January 2012, 09:21 PM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	African gets my vote, I have seen this confirmed but I can't recall...Algeria? Gav

10th November 2014, 12:45 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	oops

8th January 2012, 10:34 PM	#9
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Stan, that's a literal translation from German for scabbard, it's happened to me as well using Google translate.

14th January 2012, 09:00 AM	#14
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	I notice that one side of the blade is "raw". You still can see all the surface asperities caused by the forging process. This is fashionable these days, but it wasn't in the ancient times. So it must be a rather common working knife and the one who did it didn't pay much attention to the aesthetics aspects. There are some bends on the edge and the tip. I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to me to be made of a good quality steel. This leads me to the same conclusion : must have been a rather "common" knife. Could also be some tourist craft.

10th January 2012, 08:16 PM	#17
hbhansen Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Denmark Posts: 89	Thank you all for your answers. I read the links to the earlier threads an see alot of similarity. I've got a lot to work with now.

13th April 2012, 09:53 PM	#20
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	so once again, to refresh this topic! I found the note on the internet, knife from Burma. website of a dealer who sells a similar piece.

14th April 2012, 11:42 AM	#21
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	Thank you Chregu, Assuming it is not against the rules could you please post directions to the website, so we can check the reference. I'm not saying the dealer is wrong, but there have been so many disparate suggestions as to the origin of these knives I'd like to know why he says it is Burmese. Best wishes Richard

14th April 2012, 01:28 PM	#22
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	References certainly would add weight to any webpage description...even Bonhams has had these listed as African in the past....but without references....

15th April 2012, 04:59 PM	#23
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	I've seen this type of knife a few times over the years. The construction of the knife itself, and of the sheath, also the decoration, make me clearly feel they are from the northern part of the Indian sub-continent.

19th April 2012, 07:01 PM	#24
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	Thank you Chegru, I understand. I can see a resemblance to a dha of Henrik's knife, but I'm not sure about mine. But I agree, it is worth investigating. David R. The blade on my knife, and I think Henrik's, is not so much "unworked" as poorly finished, still showing file marks, and yes the steeel is of poor quality, showing signs of incipient lamination etc. Colin. I have recently seen a bronze bowl with this dot and circle decoration and with an inscription in what I think is devanagari. I thought this was probably Nepali. Is this what you had in mind when you said "north indian"? But then I suppose it could have been a Burmese bowl. Regards Richard