Tatar saber for discussion

Perkun · 18th June 2005, 09:34 PM

It is not often one has a chance to discuss Tatar wepons. Here is an example of a 17th c. Tatar (or Polish-Tatar as some texts would call it) saber I was recently fortunate to find.
Perhaps Wolviex will be so kind and help to narrow the age range.

Jacob · 18th June 2005, 10:01 PM

Is that sharkskin on the hilt?

Perkun · 18th June 2005, 10:15 PM

Yes. Held up very well too!

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2005, 01:11 AM

This does appear to be an example of a Tatar type sabre of the latter 17th century. While this form originated with the Tatars, it was commonly duplicated in examples made in Lvov by Armenian craftsmen, thus the term commonly misapplied 'ormianka' or the Armenian sabre. King John III Sobieski of Poland favored Eastern fashion thus he is portraited wearing one and a number of them were likely worn by others in his favor, during latter 17th century. In Poland these sabres were termed 'ordynka' (=horde) for thier likely steppes origins, or often 'czeczuga' (=small sturgeon) for the distinctive ray or fishskin grips.

These sabres are beyond incredibly rare! and very little is published on them aside from the data above which is from "Polish Sabres: Their Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski & Wojciech Bochnak, in Art, Arms & Armour, Vol. I, 1979-80, pp.232-33. Examples are also illustrated in Zygulski (p.242-43) and in "Iranian Swords of 17th c. with Russian Inscriptions in the Collection of State Hermitage Museum" by Yuri Miller (p.138, #150). In the Miller illustrations the hilt form is of this type but mounted with shamshir blade dated 1698. The mounts and hilt on yours seem consistant with the example illustrated in the Ostroski article, and it appears by the photos yours has held up quite well. Is there anything you can divulge on the provenance of this fascinating piece?
Thank you so much for posting it!!!!

All the best
Jim

ham · 19th June 2005, 01:16 AM

As Jim neatly outlines, this does appears to be a latter 17th century Lvov variant of the tatarska type, given the motifs on the mounts and the method of affixing the suspension rings. Any marks on the blade or mounts?

Sincerely,

Ham

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 01:50 AM

Jim,
I got it in Poland. The seller stated it came out of an old collection being sold off by the widow of the collector. I will continue my efforts to get more info on the previous owner as the continuity of the provenance is important to me.

You are right, very little has been written about them. There is another recent very good Polish publication (in Polish and English) "Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armour) , (I will look up the publisher and author for you later).
I still cannot beleive my luck.
Because of the shape of the blade and the nature of the decoration I suspect it is of Lwow manufacture, but I don't know enough to make it a definite identification.

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 02:00 AM

Ham,
There are some markings on the spine of the blade (in gold, visible although not well on one of the attached photos). I have not yet examined the saber in person so I don't know if they are owner's Tatar tamgas or maker's marks.

19th June 2005, 01:11 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	This does appear to be an example of a Tatar type sabre of the latter 17th century. While this form originated with the Tatars, it was commonly duplicated in examples made in Lvov by Armenian craftsmen, thus the term commonly misapplied 'ormianka' or the Armenian sabre. King John III Sobieski of Poland favored Eastern fashion thus he is portraited wearing one and a number of them were likely worn by others in his favor, during latter 17th century. In Poland these sabres were termed 'ordynka' (=horde) for thier likely steppes origins, or often 'czeczuga' (=small sturgeon) for the distinctive ray or fishskin grips. These sabres are beyond incredibly rare! and very little is published on them aside from the data above which is from "Polish Sabres: Their Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski & Wojciech Bochnak, in Art, Arms & Armour, Vol. I, 1979-80, pp.232-33. Examples are also illustrated in Zygulski (p.242-43) and in "Iranian Swords of 17th c. with Russian Inscriptions in the Collection of State Hermitage Museum" by Yuri Miller (p.138, #150). In the Miller illustrations the hilt form is of this type but mounted with shamshir blade dated 1698. The mounts and hilt on yours seem consistant with the example illustrated in the Ostroski article, and it appears by the photos yours has held up quite well. Is there anything you can divulge on the provenance of this fascinating piece? Thank you so much for posting it!!!! All the best Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th June 2005 at 02:55 AM.

18th June 2005, 09:34 PM	#1
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Tatar saber for discussion It is not often one has a chance to discuss Tatar wepons. Here is an example of a 17th c. Tatar (or Polish-Tatar as some texts would call it) saber I was recently fortunate to find. Perhaps Wolviex will be so kind and help to narrow the age range. Attached Images Last edited by Perkun; 19th June 2005 at 12:44 AM.

18th June 2005, 10:01 PM	#2
Jacob Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14	Is that sharkskin on the hilt?

18th June 2005, 10:15 PM	#3
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Yes. Held up very well too!

19th June 2005, 01:16 AM	#5
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	As Jim neatly outlines, this does appears to be a latter 17th century Lvov variant of the tatarska type, given the motifs on the mounts and the method of affixing the suspension rings. Any marks on the blade or mounts? Sincerely, Ham

19th June 2005, 01:50 AM	#6
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Jim, I got it in Poland. The seller stated it came out of an old collection being sold off by the widow of the collector. I will continue my efforts to get more info on the previous owner as the continuity of the provenance is important to me. You are right, very little has been written about them. There is another recent very good Polish publication (in Polish and English) "Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armour) , (I will look up the publisher and author for you later). I still cannot beleive my luck. Because of the shape of the blade and the nature of the decoration I suspect it is of Lwow manufacture, but I don't know enough to make it a definite identification.

19th June 2005, 02:00 AM	#7
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Ham, There are some markings on the spine of the blade (in gold, visible although not well on one of the attached photos). I have not yet examined the saber in person so I don't know if they are owner's Tatar tamgas or maker's marks.