How would you define this kris

Michel · 19th August 2007, 03:45 PM

A kris sepukal, berpamur, ganja iras
Decorated with a star and a crescent.
Is it a paror beras wutah-gedhagan ? Does it has the attribute "picit", because of the finger marks ?
The hulu (grip) is in fossilized elephant molar
The sampir is in light wood and unfortunately painted but the silver decoration is well done.
The selut is modern, a Melacca cup and is from Kota Bahru
Can anyone guess or analyse :
The origin ?
The name of the pamor ?
The reason for the change of colour in the blade (close to the crescent/star)?
Possibly an age ? (<50 years ?)
Thanks a lot.
Regards
Michel

lemmythesmith · 19th August 2007, 05:50 PM

Hi Michel, interesting blade! I've had a change in colour similar to your blade and it's generally the border between hard and soft metal when the blade has been heat treated to harden and temper it, almost like a "hamon"

Michel · 19th August 2007, 06:15 PM

Hi lemmythesmith,
A bit difficult to understand the strange position of this heat treatment ! No ?
Basically, I think you are right, the difference of colour is due to heat, but was it really a treatment to harden the metal or is it just an error ?
The forging is well done, look at the peksi, with its little hole and the heatwelding to the blade and the pamor, is not a simple one. I would love to be able to forge such a pamor .
I just do not understand that colour change.
Regards
Michel

lemmythesmith · 19th August 2007, 07:36 PM

I think it probably is the border between hard and soft metal, from what I've read on the forums(and it seems logical) the heat treatment is kept well away from the peksi which would be a weak point if made too hard. That pamor certainly is a nice one-grooves are cut with a file across the blade then the whole blade is flattened to bring the "veins" of metal in the bottom of the grooves to the surface. I'm currently building a patrem at the moment and thats how I got a similar pamor to your blade, the "stripes" look almost 3D in the right light. Cool!!!

simatua · 20th August 2007, 06:25 PM

....Amost 3D ??
....absolute 3D !!

" This 'reflection' pattern, also a by product, precisely follows laddered grooves originally filed across the blade and reforged flat to create a pamor pattern with a series of adjacent concentric ellipses "
source :The world of the Javanese keris / Garret and Bronwen Solyom

The Javanese call this Nginden

* beautiful to look at,... for over and over again; play with the light in the sun or candle
* hard to find

nice
gr
martin

Michel · 20th August 2007, 08:38 PM

Hi Simatua,
Thank you for the reference to The world of the Javanese keris / Garret and Bronwen Solyom. I knew I had seen this pattern somewhere but could not remember where. Now the photo N° 57 , page 20 of the above mentioned book, shows a blade that is slightly blurred and I cannot really say that it is similar to mine. Solyom name it a pamor mlumah. Where from is your name of : Nginden ?
Do you speak bahasa Indonesia. Some Dutch people do.
When looking closely to my blade, I can see that the finger marks where hammered on a very hot blade, the opposite side of each finger marks being leveled on the anvil.

Lemmythesmith,
congratulation if you have forged such a pattern, you must master the heat welding fairly well. I understand the ladder filing, but what is the shape of the ingot and how are the metal layers ?
I have looked in Keris Jawa, Antara mistic dan Nalar (all in Javanese that I cannot understand) but have not found a similar pamor.

Thanks to both of your for your comments
Regards
Michel

Nathaniel · 30th August 2007, 03:35 AM

Hello everyone...this is my first post...I was told by Mark Bowditch and Antonio Cejunior that I might find some answers here...

It's my Grandfather's....at least over 60-70 years old...

My Mom says that this is a dress/ ceremonial knife my grandfather was given to by her brother in Singapore......guessing it's from Malaysia...any comments...or information you might have about it...I took a close up of the emblem/ seal...it's written in Arabic...any translation???

The material seems to be some type of ivory...fittings are gold and the blade is silver...the blade is 19cm...25cm from handle to tip and 28cm when in it's sheath.

Alam Shah · 31st August 2007, 04:24 AM

An interesting keris, indeed.

(see your post).

19th August 2007, 03:45 PM	#1
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	How would you define this kris A kris sepukal, berpamur, ganja iras Decorated with a star and a crescent. Is it a paror beras wutah-gedhagan ? Does it has the attribute "picit", because of the finger marks ? The hulu (grip) is in fossilized elephant molar The sampir is in light wood and unfortunately painted but the silver decoration is well done. The selut is modern, a Melacca cup and is from Kota Bahru Can anyone guess or analyse : The origin ? The name of the pamor ? The reason for the change of colour in the blade (close to the crescent/star)? Possibly an age ? (<50 years ?) Thanks a lot. Regards Michel Attached Images

19th August 2007, 06:15 PM	#3
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Heat treatment ?http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=51 Hi lemmythesmith, A bit difficult to understand the strange position of this heat treatment ! No ? Basically, I think you are right, the difference of colour is due to heat, but was it really a treatment to harden the metal or is it just an error ? The forging is well done, look at the peksi, with its little hole and the heatwelding to the blade and the pamor, is not a simple one. I would love to be able to forge such a pamor . I just do not understand that colour change. Regards Michel Attached Images

20th August 2007, 06:25 PM	#5
simatua Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 69	Nginden ....Amost 3D ?? ....absolute 3D !! " This 'reflection' pattern, also a by product, precisely follows laddered grooves originally filed across the blade and reforged flat to create a pamor pattern with a series of adjacent concentric ellipses " source :The world of the Javanese keris / Garret and Bronwen Solyom The Javanese call this Nginden * beautiful to look at,... for over and over again; play with the light in the sun or candle * hard to find nice gr martin

20th August 2007, 08:38 PM	#6
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Nginden Hi Simatua, Thank you for the reference to The world of the Javanese keris / Garret and Bronwen Solyom. I knew I had seen this pattern somewhere but could not remember where. Now the photo N° 57 , page 20 of the above mentioned book, shows a blade that is slightly blurred and I cannot really say that it is similar to mine. Solyom name it a pamor mlumah. Where from is your name of : Nginden ? Do you speak bahasa Indonesia. Some Dutch people do. When looking closely to my blade, I can see that the finger marks where hammered on a very hot blade, the opposite side of each finger marks being leveled on the anvil. Lemmythesmith, congratulation if you have forged such a pattern, you must master the heat welding fairly well. I understand the ladder filing, but what is the shape of the ingot and how are the metal layers ? I have looked in Keris Jawa, Antara mistic dan Nalar (all in Javanese that I cannot understand) but have not found a similar pamor. Thanks to both of your for your comments Regards Michel

30th August 2007, 03:35 AM	#7
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Grandfather's Kris Hello everyone...this is my first post...I was told by Mark Bowditch and Antonio Cejunior that I might find some answers here... It's my Grandfather's....at least over 60-70 years old... My Mom says that this is a dress/ ceremonial knife my grandfather was given to by her brother in Singapore......guessing it's from Malaysia...any comments...or information you might have about it...I took a close up of the emblem/ seal...it's written in Arabic...any translation??? The material seems to be some type of ivory...fittings are gold and the blade is silver...the blade is 19cm...25cm from handle to tip and 28cm when in it's sheath.

19th August 2007, 05:50 PM	#2
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Michel, interesting blade! I've had a change in colour similar to your blade and it's generally the border between hard and soft metal when the blade has been heat treated to harden and temper it, almost like a "hamon"

19th August 2007, 07:36 PM	#4
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	I think it probably is the border between hard and soft metal, from what I've read on the forums(and it seems logical) the heat treatment is kept well away from the peksi which would be a weak point if made too hard. That pamor certainly is a nice one-grooves are cut with a file across the blade then the whole blade is flattened to bring the "veins" of metal in the bottom of the grooves to the surface. I'm currently building a patrem at the moment and thats how I got a similar pamor to your blade, the "stripes" look almost 3D in the right light. Cool!!!

31st August 2007, 04:24 AM	#8
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	An interesting keris, indeed. (see your post).