Opinions on reproduction turkish (or persian?) dagger

dakary · 12th September 2023, 03:32 AM

Hi everybody,

I know that a lot of the discussion here focuses on antiques, but I am really hoping that I am allowed to ask about a modern reproduction. If I am not, please accept my apologies.

I commissioned a sword maker who specializes in Turkish swords to make me a sword (kilij) and a dagger. He doesn't normally make daggers (he focuses on swords). I said that I wanted something ottoman and 15th century but we had trouble finding things. We did manage to find some 16th century daggers, with the understanding that there probably wouldn't be a huge difference - so I agreed on that.

I have attached a picture of what he sent me. It doesn't look much like anything I sent him or he sent me. I want to get your opinions on it. I think it is cool, and really well made, but I am worried that it is a fantasy piece and that I can't legitimately call this a historical reproduction. However, this order of the sword and dagger was my first dip into the middle eastern reproduction market (I typically dabble in 15th century Europe, or - to a lesser degree - 18th century North America) so maybe I'm wrong and it is fine from a historical perspective.

Here are my concerns with it:

1. The handle silhouette shape seems plausible (Persian?), but I am not sure about the flattened octagon handle. I wonder if it shouldn't be oval instead, or have more sides to it.
2. I am not sure about the riveted handle. I am wondering if this shouldn't be peened.
3. I am not sure about the side rings. Weren't these just tucked into a belt without rings, hooks, etc?
4. I am not sure about this lacking a chape. Shouldn't there be a chape over the leather, or under the leather with a ball sticking out? Were these ever without a chape?
5. I am not sure about the direction of the point. When wearing it in front, the curve goes left. Shouldn't it curve right?
6. Is wood something that was used for this sort of dagger handle/hilt?

I'll admit my total ignorance here (I hope these aren't dumb questions), and I really would appreciate some help and an education. Thank you so much!

Bob A · 13th September 2023, 05:33 PM

Not many 15th century examples readily at hand.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28406

Your dagger seems very modern in design, despite its general shape being vaguely based on daggers from the area in question. Certainly nothing like it would have been found 600 years ago.

Examples still in existence will have been preserved because of their inherent value and provenance; I'd expect precious metals and stones and remarkable levels of craftsmanship, rather than stark semi-Scandinavian sensibility.

Without discussing whether the dagger is appropriate for this site, I'd say your example has missed the mark more or less completely.

More or less a nice knife, but I hate the handle; wood is far from appropriate, the flat panels look uncomfortable as well as being unlike anything I've seen from the region. On appearance alone, it does not invite me to pick it up and "handle" it.

dakary · 13th September 2023, 06:12 PM

Thanks Bob.

Yeah that thread you posted was me trying to figure out what to send to the maker. Some of the information was sent to him. The following pictures were used in my discussion with him of period examples (how he came up with this I have no idea - he hasn't been responding to me at all...I feel almost like I have been fleeced but I was wondering if I just wasn't being ignorant and he made something right).

dakary · 13th September 2023, 06:15 PM

Pictures here:

A. G. Maisey · 13th September 2023, 10:36 PM

Totally out of my area of interest, however, would "Ottoman" perhaps be a more productive search term than "Turkish"?

https://www.google.com/search?client...=1027&dpr=1.25

dakary · 14th September 2023, 01:46 AM

Here are some more pictures of it, so people can get a better sense of the construction.

Ian · 14th September 2023, 02:13 PM

Hi dakary,

I actually like the lines of this knife, with one exception. The grip area of the hilt is too short. Comparing it to the antique versions shown by other commenters, the cut out areas of the hilt need to be longer and with more sharply defined shoulders. Otherwise I think he has done a nice job. If you want authenticity for the time period you are interested in, then the suspension rings on the sheath should go.

How does the knife feel in your hand?

dakary · 14th September 2023, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi dakary,

I actually like the lines of this knife, with one exception. The grip area of the hilt is too short. Comparing it to the antique versions shown by other commenters, the cut out areas of the hilt need to be longer and with more sharply defined shoulders. Otherwise I think he has done a nice job. If you want authenticity for the time period you are interested in, then the suspension rings on the sheath should go.

How does the knife feel in your hand?

Thanks! I think it feels good and secure. My hand doesn't fully fit in the space but feels locked in. I am used to some European daggers like bollock daggers/dirks where your hands are supposed to ride on the haunches a bit and it does here. I don't know if that is right. Here are some pictures (because they are worth a thousand words!):

dakary · 16th September 2023, 09:13 PM

I want to thank everybody for their comments.

So I am thinking about what to do with this. I wonder if it isn't fixable. I think that the goal here should be low status...

Maybe I could, with some careful sanding, increase the area for the hand (it seems like there is room to spare, especially near the pommel end) and reshape it a bit so that the contours are less sharp and the shoulders are more defined (what do you mean exactly, Ian?

I'm still wondering about the way the hilt it is constructed, but I am not sure anything can be done about that aspect.

As for the scabbard...it fits really well but I should get rid of the suspension rings, as Ian said, but that might mean redoing the leather. If that's the case, should a chape be added or did these also not have chapes? I think some had chapes over the leather, and some had chapes that were under the leather. It would be easiest not to have one at all, of course, but I don't know if that would be right.

12th September 2023, 03:32 AM	#1
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Opinions on reproduction turkish (or persian?) dagger Hi everybody, I know that a lot of the discussion here focuses on antiques, but I am really hoping that I am allowed to ask about a modern reproduction. If I am not, please accept my apologies. I commissioned a sword maker who specializes in Turkish swords to make me a sword (kilij) and a dagger. He doesn't normally make daggers (he focuses on swords). I said that I wanted something ottoman and 15th century but we had trouble finding things. We did manage to find some 16th century daggers, with the understanding that there probably wouldn't be a huge difference - so I agreed on that. I have attached a picture of what he sent me. It doesn't look much like anything I sent him or he sent me. I want to get your opinions on it. I think it is cool, and really well made, but I am worried that it is a fantasy piece and that I can't legitimately call this a historical reproduction. However, this order of the sword and dagger was my first dip into the middle eastern reproduction market (I typically dabble in 15th century Europe, or - to a lesser degree - 18th century North America) so maybe I'm wrong and it is fine from a historical perspective. Here are my concerns with it: 1. The handle silhouette shape seems plausible (Persian?), but I am not sure about the flattened octagon handle. I wonder if it shouldn't be oval instead, or have more sides to it. 2. I am not sure about the riveted handle. I am wondering if this shouldn't be peened. 3. I am not sure about the side rings. Weren't these just tucked into a belt without rings, hooks, etc? 4. I am not sure about this lacking a chape. Shouldn't there be a chape over the leather, or under the leather with a ball sticking out? Were these ever without a chape? 5. I am not sure about the direction of the point. When wearing it in front, the curve goes left. Shouldn't it curve right? 6. Is wood something that was used for this sort of dagger handle/hilt? I'll admit my total ignorance here (I hope these aren't dumb questions), and I really would appreciate some help and an education. Thank you so much! Attached Images

13th September 2023, 06:15 PM	#4
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Pictures here: Attached Images

14th September 2023, 01:46 AM	#6
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Here are some more pictures of it, so people can get a better sense of the construction. Attached Images

13th September 2023, 05:33 PM	#2
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	Not many 15th century examples readily at hand. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28406 Your dagger seems very modern in design, despite its general shape being vaguely based on daggers from the area in question. Certainly nothing like it would have been found 600 years ago. Examples still in existence will have been preserved because of their inherent value and provenance; I'd expect precious metals and stones and remarkable levels of craftsmanship, rather than stark semi-Scandinavian sensibility. Without discussing whether the dagger is appropriate for this site, I'd say your example has missed the mark more or less completely. More or less a nice knife, but I hate the handle; wood is far from appropriate, the flat panels look uncomfortable as well as being unlike anything I've seen from the region. On appearance alone, it does not invite me to pick it up and "handle" it.

13th September 2023, 06:12 PM	#3
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Thanks Bob. Yeah that thread you posted was me trying to figure out what to send to the maker. Some of the information was sent to him. The following pictures were used in my discussion with him of period examples (how he came up with this I have no idea - he hasn't been responding to me at all...I feel almost like I have been fleeced but I was wondering if I just wasn't being ignorant and he made something right).

13th September 2023, 10:36 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Totally out of my area of interest, however, would "Ottoman" perhaps be a more productive search term than "Turkish"? https://www.google.com/search?client...=1027&dpr=1.25

14th September 2023, 02:13 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Hi dakary, I actually like the lines of this knife, with one exception. The grip area of the hilt is too short. Comparing it to the antique versions shown by other commenters, the cut out areas of the hilt need to be longer and with more sharply defined shoulders. Otherwise I think he has done a nice job. If you want authenticity for the time period you are interested in, then the suspension rings on the sheath should go. How does the knife feel in your hand?

16th September 2023, 09:13 PM	#9
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	I want to thank everybody for their comments. So I am thinking about what to do with this. I wonder if it isn't fixable. I think that the goal here should be low status... Maybe I could, with some careful sanding, increase the area for the hand (it seems like there is room to spare, especially near the pommel end) and reshape it a bit so that the contours are less sharp and the shoulders are more defined (what do you mean exactly, Ian? I'm still wondering about the way the hilt it is constructed, but I am not sure anything can be done about that aspect. As for the scabbard...it fits really well but I should get rid of the suspension rings, as Ian said, but that might mean redoing the leather. If that's the case, should a chape be added or did these also not have chapes? I think some had chapes over the leather, and some had chapes that were under the leather. It would be easiest not to have one at all, of course, but I don't know if that would be right.