Faceted Tips on Chinese Swords? (Split from HOS Catalogue thread)

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

This would give birth to the so called yokote in the Japanese blade.

This is really an undervalued and usually misunderstood thing.
In effect Yokote originated in China, as you correctly state. The following
sword is the one used by Shotoku Taishi and preserved in the Shosoin,
Nara, dated to the Sui (if chinese) / Asuka (if japanese) period (VII c. A.D.)
Origin still debated but in this period swords were imported in large quantities
from China. The Yokote with even stronger changing in geometry then the
one you've posted is evident, confirming the chinese origin of this feature,
now usually considered a japanese one :



Another example, same period but considered japanese, still identical to
mainland swords :

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

In the Jomon period chokuto both from China and Korea (ring pommel swords) were used mainly for stabbing, hence the ring to use the hand for pressing/pushing.
Many people think of Katana just for cutting, forgetting the stabbing purpose.

Almost all right here too, but I've to highlight that the therm Katana, even
if with wide meaning, is conventionally referred to curved swords.
Jokoto and straight, ring pommelled Warabite-to had (have?) a blade
geometry/section that wasn't good for cutting, being the Shinogi (ridge line),
when present, too low (see examples hereabove).
Of course you're right in saying they were used for slashing too, but not as
primary purpose. The contrary of the later Katana, that had a rised Shinogi
and a curvature that balanced the weakening of a thinner hardened
cutting edge. Reversely, here we've a marginal only stabbing purpose, due to
the cross section and general Sugata (shape), optimized for cutting.

A good modern museum quality reproduction of a ring pommelled
japanese Warabite-To, very similar to continental items (III/V c. A.D.) :

[josh stout]

Having stayed away from the vast world of Nihanto I am a bit confused by the discussion. I understand that many aspects of Japanese swords came from China, but the faceted tip is not found on Chinese swords as far as I know. I have seen the pictures posted of what may be a Chinese tribute blade (what do you call a present from one emperor to another?), but that is the only one I have ever seen. There are modern Chinese sword makers making "Han" style zheibeidao with tips like that, but I don't see them in actual Han examples. As HOS has some very good pictures of early iron and bronze pieces, can anyone site an example of a faceted tip? The zheibeidao form of the Tang dynasty that was copied by Japanese sword makers was preserved by Tibetan peoples and does not have a faceted tip.

Here is an example of a Chinese/Tibetan zhiebeidao. It is unusual in that the tip seems to have been separately applied, but there is no evidence of faceting.


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation285.jpg

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation293.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation275.jpg

Josh

[Andrew]

Hi Josh. Check out post #40 in this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=40

Andrew

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by josh stout

I have seen the pictures posted of what may be a Chinese tribute blade (what do you call a present from one emperor to another?), but that is the only one I have ever seen.

Mmmm.. maybe the Sui swords we are referring to were all destroyed in the
centuries ?
Even in Japan such original items are no more then a few dozen, treasured
in Shrines and a very few only documented. In actual paintings you can't
find such a kissaki detail...
There are no evidences this was a present from Chinese Emperor, too.
Might be simply a very good blade purchased or custom ordered for
the Emperor. Anyway, even if it was the case, I'm not sure that a "tribute
blade" must necessarly have different features then the ones present on the
battlefield items. On the contrary such features usually are much more
detailed and well made to represent the status of both giving and receiving
parts.


Other then to quote the Tokyo National Museum I would add to my
sources Nagayama Kokan in his "Token Kantei Dokuhon" in which he depicts
another couple of them with chinese features and chinese provenance.
Here the scan of a detail of page 13 of the english version
(ISBN 4 7700 2071 6)
Kiriha means "with ridge line", Kamasu Kissaki means exactly the point's shape
of the pics I've posted, with Yokote.

[josh stout]

I am sorry for pushing this, but it is a fascinating question for me. The only Chinese blades with a facetted tip seem to be in Japan, and then there is the one from this thread that was restored to show the faceting. What did it look like before the restoration? I went back through the HOS pictures of bronze swords, which are in good enough condition and well photographed enough to show a faceted tip but could not find any. There are good Tibetan blades going back 500 years without any change in style, and then there are these 2000-year-old bronze blades that are still in roughly the same form. I know little of the intervening 1500 years. Thomas Chen's website describes the Tang and Sui swords in Japanese collections as probably from China, but they also could have been polished in a Japanese style.

One of the characteristics of Chinese swords is that many styles of many periods can be found coexisting, but they all seem to have lost the faceted tip if they ever had one. Such tips are not in my understanding found on typical swords of the Qing, Ming, Yuan or Song dynasties. They are certainly not visible in art from those periods that I have examined, and they are not found on antique examples done in those styles. (i.e. not necessarily dated to a particular dynasty but in the style of the dynasty).

I am not at all saying that such tips could not have existed. There are records of many Japanese blades ending up in China, and I have seen pictures of some possible examples that do not show faceted tips. So clearly Japanese blades would have had them, but maybe they lost their faceting? Would all of the Chinese blades also have lost their faceting? I would really like to see what the jian tip shown as an example in this thread looked like before restoration. Maybe I simply don't see faceting where others can. I have seen angled points like those shown, just not the distinct separate tip as found on Japanese swords. If such tips are there, it wouldn't be the first time I have had to learn to see something.
Josh

[Andrew]

I don't think it's unreasonable to pursue this area of inquiry at all, Josh. I have no expertise in this area, so I'm limited to a role as a spectator, however.

What I can do is split this off so we have a separate, dedicated thread, which the issue certainly deserves.

[tsubame1]

Whew, I belived this topic was deleted and me banned again ...

Originally Posted by josh stout

Thomas Chen's website describes the Tang and Sui swords in Japanese collections as probably from China, but they also could have been polished in a Japanese style.

They still have the original shape and have been preserved extremely well,
near to mint conditions. The "seven stars" one has very light carving on
them showing, among other things, a constellation. Japanese polishing
consists in using abrasive stones that would have deleted the carvings even
in a much lighter polishing then the one needed to change the point
geometry (you have to maintain the plans geometries and proportions so
EVERYTHING on the blade must be polished in a deep restoration.)
Not to say that the japaneses had no reasons in changing that shape.
It has to be noted, too, that the japaneses (that are quiet proud of their
nationality) never denied this provenance even during the mad '30s
in wich nationalism and xenophobia reached the top.

Originally Posted by josh stout

One of the characteristics of Chinese swords is that many styles of many periods can be found coexisting, but they all seem to have lost the faceted tip if they ever had one. Such tips are not in my understanding found on typical swords of the Qing, Ming, Yuan or Song dynasties. They are certainly not visible in art from those periods that I have examined, and they are not found on antique examples done in those styles. (i.e. not necessarily dated to a particular dynasty but in the style of the dynasty).

Checked for Sui and nearby ? I'm sorry to be too specialized in japanese
weaponry to have not other examples to show (in effect I've another one
with mounting but is still treasured in Japan so counts as the other ones..)

Originally Posted by josh stout

I am not at all saying that such tips could not have existed. There are records of many Japanese blades ending up in China, and I have seen pictures of some possible examples that do not show faceted tips. So clearly Japanese blades would have had them, but maybe they lost their faceting?

As per the japanese blades in China losing the yokote :
there are two explanations for this : improper polishing that deleted the
Yokote or simply a slightly different blade geometry called "Shobu Zukuri".
A faceted tip is harder to make. Most of the blades sold to China were
the so-called kazuuchimono, mass produced blades still very effective but
not of the same quality of the good ones. Such inferior blades were
widely made for large armies in japan too during certain periods in which
enormous armies had to be supplied, and a shobuzukuri (without faceted tip) cutting blade was easier to make, hence, I believe, the absence of it on some of the chinese examples. Of course, Shobuzukuri blades were made
even in high quality standards, but you hardly provide potential enemy with
the best of your production.

I would like to be advised by if you find something that can support or
even deny this theory as it is of great importance to me.
A sources showing chinese blade with this type of point would be a
*great* contribution to my studies. I'll make the same, no matter what
comes out, with you.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by tsubame1

Whew, I belived this topic was deleted and me banned again ...

lol. Why would you think you had been banned?

Conscience bothering you, perhaps?