Stamp on a Klewang

[ruiter58]

Hello, i've seen this trademark on several klewangs now. I think it is from a Indonesian sword-smith. Can anyone tell more about this logo? thanks!

Ron de Ruiter

[David]

Interesting. This is not a mark i have seen on Dutch klewangs before, but blades for these were made in numerous place, including Germany, the Netherlands and the USA. I am not aware of these blades being manufactured in Indonesia though. This also seems like an unusual maker's mark for an Indonesian smith.

[ruiter58]

Hi David, thanks for your answer.

But I am not sure we need to look in Europe. As far as I know, the following European manufacturers made the Dutch Klewang:
Germany:
• P D Lűneschloss
• RMM (Rheinische Metallwaaren- und Maschinenfabriek )
• Alexander Coppel
• WKC (Weyersberg & Kirschbaum)
• Carl Kaiser & Co
• Aug & Alb. Schnitzler
• Carl Eickhorn
• E & F Hörster

Netherlands:
• Hembrug

None of these have the Hammer & Anvil maker mark and I could not find the maker mark in "German knife and sword makers" from Carter. I am not sure if it is allowed for me to add a foto as the klewang is for sale and it is not mine. I was under the impression that the klewang was post 1945 but that is based on no more than a feeling. Over the last 3-4 years I've seen 3 klewangs with this trademark being offered on Dutch market sites. All had very thin hilt baskets and did not seem to have had any rust protection.

[asomotif]

Hello Ron,

Maybe a bit to simplistic, but : PB = Paku Buwono ?

Best regards,
Willem

[David]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hello Ron,

Maybe a bit to simplistic, but : PB = Paku Buwono ?

Best regards,
Willem

Yes, that came to my mind as well, though if that were the case i would think it would more likely be marked PBX like this example.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22308

[David]

Originally Posted by ruiter58

Hi David, thanks for your answer.

But I am not sure we need to look in Europe. As far as I know, the following European manufacturers made the Dutch Klewang:
Germany:
• P D Lűneschloss
• RMM (Rheinische Metallwaaren- und Maschinenfabriek )
• Alexander Coppel
• WKC (Weyersberg & Kirschbaum)
• Carl Kaiser & Co
• Aug & Alb. Schnitzler
• Carl Eickhorn
• E & F Hörster

Netherlands:
• Hembrug

None of these have the Hammer & Anvil maker mark and I could not find the maker mark in "German knife and sword makers" from Carter. I am not sure if it is allowed for me to add a foto as the klewang is for sale and it is not mine. I was under the impression that the klewang was post 1945 but that is based on no more than a feeling. Over the last 3-4 years I've seen 3 klewangs with this trademark being offered on Dutch market sites. All had very thin hilt baskets and did not seem to have had any rust protection.

My point was that this maker's mark is very unusual for blades made in Indonesia. In fact ANY maker's mark is unusual. But this hammer and anvil mark really has more of a Western look to it than anything i have ever seen on an Indonesian blade.
Some variation of this marker's mark or logo is very common with Western smiths though.

[ruiter58]

Thanks Willem and David,

Sorry about the late reply but I was out or a few days.
I do remember an older thread now where the PBX was mentioned. I'm searching the internet and get a lot of hits on "Paku Buwono" and will dive into that. Dave, you made me think and indeed I don't know any Indonesian maker marks. (Apart from Tjikeroe inscriptions). I can post another photo of the klewang now as I was able to buy it. You can see the damaged basket and the weirdly thin sheath. I expect to have it in my hands next week so that I can weigh and measure it. Don't know why but at this moment I am still convinced it is post 1945. Kind regards, Ron

[Ian]

Originally Posted by ruiter58

...
I do remember an older thread now where the PBX was mentioned. I'm searching the internet and get a lot of hits on "Paku Buwono" and will dive into that. ...

That old thread is here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22308

[Gavin Nugent]

It is indeed a very EU/US looking mark.

What does a native Lombok maker's mark actually look like?

For context, here is a ricasso photo from an example in my collection.

It is faithful to the KNIL Klewang in all dimensions, yet also carries native flair that can be seen at the base and other areas of the blade.

Whilst not a stamp, but is a mark, can such a thing even be considered a "makers" mark though, or is it symbolic of something else.

It is not an anvil, but it radiates lines though.

[ruiter58]

I finally have the klewang in my hands now and can compare it to a “regular” klewang. I picked an M1911 Hembrug as I think that is the most common used klewang which also served as an example for the M1940 and M1941. The Hammer/Anvil version is almost 25% heavier while the hilt is more than 15% thinner so all the extra weight is in the blade. I can imagine it does not handle as well as the M1911 just because of the weight and the different balancing point (The M1911 balances at 14.5 cm from the hilt basket while the Hammer/Anvil balances at 17.6 cm from the hilt basket. I will check this balancing point later on other klewangs too). When you have both klewangs in your hands it is an easy and quick conclusion that the hammer/anvil is quite roughly finished and appears to have been hastily put together. The basket hilt is not screwed on top but forged and the blade fuller is handmade as it has many irregularities (by grinder?). On the example I have, the hilt basket is damaged as if someone has put a heavy weight on it, I don’t think it is battle damage. And, in general, the klewang can sure use some “taking care off”

AND=> I completely overlooked this but there is a similar klewang in the collection of the Dutch Army Museum and therefore also mentioned in the Klewang catalogue of the museum; I will post the information mentioned there tonight in this thread (or tomorow...)

[werecow]

Originally Posted by ruiter58

I will check this balancing point later on other klewangs too

I'll add a data point (and some pics while I'm at it). I can't give you the same precision, as my calipers have no battery, but I have one of the unsharpened Hembrug M1913 marechaussee (I think?) klewangs with the steel scabbard and leather grip. Scabbard and sword both marked 644. Crown over Z on outside of the blade. Chromed, by the looks of it. Measurements are approximately (to within 0.5mm or so):

Weight klewang: 654 grams
Weight scabbard: 630 grams
Blade length: 62cm
Blade width at the base: 3.3 cm
Blade width at 15 cm from the base: 3 cm
Blade width at 10 cm from the tip: 3 cm
Blade thickness at the base: slightly over 4 mm
Blade thickness at 15 cm from the base: slightly over 3.5 mm
Blade thickness at 10 cm from the tip: 3 mm
Basket thickness: 1.5 mm
Grip width at the widest point of the bulge: 3.6 cm
Grip thickness: 2.8 cm
POB: 14.5cm from the guard

Feels very light, especially compared to cutlasses of comparable length. In fact, it's significantly lighter than your examples in spite of being unsharpened, and the blade is somewhat thinner so I'm hoping that does not call into question it's authenticity.

[ruiter58]

I found the following information in the “Klewang, Catalogue of the Dutch Army Museum” by J.P.Puype and R.J. de Stűrler Boekwijt. (I think this Catalogue/Book is a must for any European klewang collector)
Klewang catalogue nr.78 is a 99,9 % similar klewang. As the catalogue is bi-lingual (Dutch and English) I will just type over the information given.
Quote: “Klewang made for the Indonesian Army, or T.N.I., probably in or after 1946. Owing to their improvised appearance and often slipshod engineering quality, most early klewangs T.N.I. are suspected to have been handmade under rather primitive circumstances. The hilt basket of this example has been manually sawn from a sheet-steel plate and blade was manufactured by grinding down, again by hand, the leaf-spring of an automobile. The scabbard, of flexible leather, and with a brass chape with two drainage holes at the front, was probably made by the Indonesians in it entirety. The grip scales and their rivets were probably taken from a N.E.I. Marechaussee sword M1911. The top of the guard is stamped ‘PolTa No 58’ which may mean ‘Polisi Tentara’ i.e. Army Police or MP. The blade bears on the reverse an indigenous maker’s mark consisting of a hammer over an anvil with the letters ‘P B’ underneath, the entire logo being surrounded by a halo. The letters possibly stand for ‘Pabrik Industri Angkatan Darat’ or, literally translated ‘Industrial Factory of the Army’ a rather grand name for what probably was a clandestine workshop in what were still the Dutch colonies.” Unquote

Underneath a picture of the hilt basket.
Quote: “Note the hand-sawn and hand-beaten, sheet iron hilt basket” Unquote

As for the 99,9 % => My example is missing the chape and both the grip scales and rivets are not from the M1911. I think that, when this klewang was made, the supply of spare parts was already completely used.
As I stated in my previous post, at first glance you can see it is much more coarser and way less “finished and smoothed” than f.i. the Hembrug M1911. But the Hembrug is mass produced on machines that produced constant (high) quality blades and all other parts, put together by highly experienced and skilled workers and inspected before delivery by specialized inspectors.

Now, realizing the klewang is completely handmade, starting with the spring-leaf of an automobile and a piece of sheet-iron, I can only take of my hat in respect for the manufacturers and their skills and say that I am the proud owner.

We also have even more search options now to find anything about the Hammer and Anvil maker mark history

[ruiter58]

Hello werecow,

I think you have a nice example of the Hembrug built M1913 and it looks original to me. It does not have the KM mark but does have all other marks.
Please look at a discussion in an earlier thread on this forum about a klewang being a Police klewang or a Marechaussee klewang. Yours is a M1913 Marechausse klewang.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ferrerid=29063

Hope the link works...

Kind regards,
Ron

[werecow]

Originally Posted by ruiter58

Hello werecow,

I think you have a nice example of the Hembrug built M1913 and it looks original to me. It does not have the KM mark but does have all other marks.
Please look at a discussion in an earlier thread on this forum about a klewang being a Police klewang or a Marechaussee klewang. Yours is a M1913 Marechausse klewang.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ferrerid=29063

Hope the link works...

Kind regards,
Ron

Hi Ron,

Good to hear, thanks! I've found that thread in the past and IIRC that is indeed one of the ones I used as a reference when I bought it to help narrow down the model. This forum is very useful!