Arsenic or realgar for Keris etching?

Tatyana Dianova · 17th May 2007, 07:15 PM

I want to etch a couple of Keris. I can buy in eBay at Minerals:
- sterling arsenic (a dark grey mineral)
- or realgar (arsenic+sulphur, white cristal)
What is better for etching?

David · 17th May 2007, 08:47 PM

Hi Tatyana. I use lab grade arsenic trioxide, but i know that it isn't an easy substance to come by. The nice thing about it though is that it is always the same so you can get more controlled results. I have never used realgar, but i have heard from members here who have that you want the pink stuff. But the white stuff might work just as well.

I don't know anything at all about "sterling arsenic" so you might want to stay away from it.

Marcokeris · 18th May 2007, 12:55 PM

Is starling arsenic :metallic arsenic?

Tatyana Dianova · 19th May 2007, 12:20 PM

It seems to be a clean arsenic.

David · 19th May 2007, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

It seems to be a clean arsenic.

I don't understand what you mean by "clean".

Marcokeris · 19th May 2007, 05:13 PM

Tatyana is this mineral heavy or light? Hard or soft?
If it is heavy and hard, pay attention don't put fire near the mineral: his vapour is dangerous (poison: smell like garlic)

Boedhi Adhitya · 19th May 2007, 06:21 PM

Tatyana, if you are using realgar, always use the red or deep oranges with some yellow ones. The less the yellow, the better. the deeper the red and orange, the better. Purple is the best, but it's hard to find. The good one should shows crystalline structure, and easy to pulverize using the pestle and mortar. As Marcokeris already warn, it would quickly transfered to a poisonous arsenic gas if you burn it. Never try the white or gray, or pure yellow. Pulverize and mix it with the lime juice, and let it rest for at least a night before use. During use, the the solution's color may change to a brownish color. The older the solution, the deeper the color. Do not throw away the old solution. It's a 'babon warangan', or 'mother solution'. If you use the brushing technique, you should mix the babon with some new one. Immersion technique use a deep brown, almost black solution. Finding the right solution is part of the art. Keep away the solution from oil, copper alloy and soap. Just put some rusty nail and let it rest for a night to make an old solution from the new one, quickly.

Happy marangi, and beware of it's health hazard.

cannext · 5th June 2007, 10:45 PM

"gediegen arsen" is german for metalic arsenic ,gediegen means pure some metals are found this way for instance gold silver or copper.
Hope this helps ,enjoy F.

Royston · 12th August 2009, 06:55 PM

Gents

For my sins I was once an aspiring Geologist. It was a long time ago but one thing about minerals sticks clearly in my mind. They differ in composition and colour a lot. If the relative amounts of arsenic to trace elements is important for the etch to work there is no saying that this will always be the same colour. Often other trace elements will alter the colour, sometimes a lot.
The result of this is that a good "etching " realgar may be red in one mine but may be yellow in another.

Regards
Roy

David · 12th August 2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royston

Gents

For my sins I was once an aspiring Geologist. It was a long time ago but one thing about minerals sticks clearly in my mind. They differ in composition and colour a lot. If the relative amounts of arsenic to trace elements is important for the etch to work there is no saying that this will always be the same colour. Often other trace elements will alter the colour, sometimes a lot.
The result of this is that a good "etching " realgar may be red in one mine but may be yellow in another.

Regards
Roy

Thanks for the geological perspective Roy. Makes sense. Also makes realgar even less predictable if you can't really count on the color as a guide.

Tatyana Dianova · 12th August 2009, 08:55 PM

Maybe it is a stupid question, but I would like to know if (staining or etching) of wootz blades with arsenic may bring a good result? Is there anybody who has tried it?

David · 13th August 2009, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

Maybe it is a stupid question, but I would like to know if (staining or etching) of wootz blades with arsenic may bring a good result? Is there anybody who has tried it?

Admittedly i don't know much about wootz, but what causes the contrast in keris blades is usually the inclusion of nickel in the pamor material which doesn't blacken like the iron does. I don't think you will get that effect with wootz.

A. G. Maisey · 13th August 2009, 12:12 AM

This is a recounting of something I have seen, it is most definitely not any sort of recommendation for anybody to practice.

Before I met Pak Parman ( Empu Suparman) I had already been staining blades by use of several different methods, at that time I found the most effective to be the brushing method. Pak Parman introduced me to a different method that produces by far the best results of any method I have tried. I will not give any advice here, nor in writing, on how to use this method because it is has far greater potential for danger than any other method.

However --- when I was taught this method by Pak Parman, it started from buying the warangan and grinding it up to a powder.

This grinding was done in the mortar and pestle that his wife used in the kitchen to prepare food.

Admitted, Pak Parman placed a piece of plastic bag over the grinding surfaces of both mortar and pestle, but this plastic soon broke through, and the reason he used the plastic was not to prevent contamination of the kitchen utensils, but to prevent loss of too much of the warangan --- Javanese mortars and pestles are made from a very grainy volcanic rock that has a pock marked surface which retains some of whatever is ground in it.

Pak Parman lived into his mid-seventies, and his passing was due not to the effects of arsenic, but due to the effects of an even more deadly poison:- TOBACCO.

Arsenic has two faces.

Yes, we know it as a poison, but it has been used as a medicine since ancient times.

http://molinterv.aspetjournals.org/c...nt/full/5/2/60

This article is worth the read.

The length of time that warangan or arsenic needs to be allowed to stand after mixing up the suspension depends upon the method used.

For both my preferred method, and for the brushing method, ten or fifteen minutes is usually sufficient, just enough time to allow the floating droplets of powder to sink to the bottom of the fluid.

If using the soak method it is necessary to allow the powder to sit for longer in the fluid.

kulbuntet · 14th August 2009, 05:06 AM

Alan,

This method your dont wanna get in to is called Nyek?

17th May 2007, 07:15 PM	#1
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	Arsenic or realgar for Keris etching? I want to etch a couple of Keris. I can buy in eBay at Minerals: - sterling arsenic (a dark grey mineral) - or realgar (arsenic+sulphur, white cristal) What is better for etching?

5th June 2007, 10:45 PM	#8
cannext Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2	"gediegen arsen" "gediegen arsen" is german for metalic arsenic ,gediegen means pure some metals are found this way for instance gold silver or copper. Hope this helps ,enjoy F.

17th May 2007, 08:47 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,120	Hi Tatyana. I use lab grade arsenic trioxide, but i know that it isn't an easy substance to come by. The nice thing about it though is that it is always the same so you can get more controlled results. I have never used realgar, but i have heard from members here who have that you want the pink stuff. But the white stuff might work just as well. I don't know anything at all about "sterling arsenic" so you might want to stay away from it.

18th May 2007, 12:55 PM	#3
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Is starling arsenic :metallic arsenic?

19th May 2007, 12:20 PM	#4
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	It seems to be a clean arsenic.

19th May 2007, 05:13 PM	#6
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Tatyana is this mineral heavy or light? Hard or soft? If it is heavy and hard, pay attention don't put fire near the mineral: his vapour is dangerous (poison: smell like garlic)

19th May 2007, 06:21 PM	#7
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Tatyana, if you are using realgar, always use the red or deep oranges with some yellow ones. The less the yellow, the better. the deeper the red and orange, the better. Purple is the best, but it's hard to find. The good one should shows crystalline structure, and easy to pulverize using the pestle and mortar. As Marcokeris already warn, it would quickly transfered to a poisonous arsenic gas if you burn it. Never try the white or gray, or pure yellow. Pulverize and mix it with the lime juice, and let it rest for at least a night before use. During use, the the solution's color may change to a brownish color. The older the solution, the deeper the color. Do not throw away the old solution. It's a 'babon warangan', or 'mother solution'. If you use the brushing technique, you should mix the babon with some new one. Immersion technique use a deep brown, almost black solution. Finding the right solution is part of the art. Keep away the solution from oil, copper alloy and soap. Just put some rusty nail and let it rest for a night to make an old solution from the new one, quickly. Happy marangi, and beware of it's health hazard.

12th August 2009, 06:55 PM	#9
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Gents For my sins I was once an aspiring Geologist. It was a long time ago but one thing about minerals sticks clearly in my mind. They differ in composition and colour a lot. If the relative amounts of arsenic to trace elements is important for the etch to work there is no saying that this will always be the same colour. Often other trace elements will alter the colour, sometimes a lot. The result of this is that a good "etching " realgar may be red in one mine but may be yellow in another. Regards Roy

12th August 2009, 08:55 PM	#11
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	Maybe it is a stupid question, but I would like to know if (staining or etching) of wootz blades with arsenic may bring a good result? Is there anybody who has tried it?

13th August 2009, 12:12 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	This is a recounting of something I have seen, it is most definitely not any sort of recommendation for anybody to practice. Before I met Pak Parman ( Empu Suparman) I had already been staining blades by use of several different methods, at that time I found the most effective to be the brushing method. Pak Parman introduced me to a different method that produces by far the best results of any method I have tried. I will not give any advice here, nor in writing, on how to use this method because it is has far greater potential for danger than any other method. However --- when I was taught this method by Pak Parman, it started from buying the warangan and grinding it up to a powder. This grinding was done in the mortar and pestle that his wife used in the kitchen to prepare food. Admitted, Pak Parman placed a piece of plastic bag over the grinding surfaces of both mortar and pestle, but this plastic soon broke through, and the reason he used the plastic was not to prevent contamination of the kitchen utensils, but to prevent loss of too much of the warangan --- Javanese mortars and pestles are made from a very grainy volcanic rock that has a pock marked surface which retains some of whatever is ground in it. Pak Parman lived into his mid-seventies, and his passing was due not to the effects of arsenic, but due to the effects of an even more deadly poison:- TOBACCO. Arsenic has two faces. Yes, we know it as a poison, but it has been used as a medicine since ancient times. http://molinterv.aspetjournals.org/c...nt/full/5/2/60 This article is worth the read. The length of time that warangan or arsenic needs to be allowed to stand after mixing up the suspension depends upon the method used. For both my preferred method, and for the brushing method, ten or fifteen minutes is usually sufficient, just enough time to allow the floating droplets of powder to sink to the bottom of the fluid. If using the soak method it is necessary to allow the powder to sit for longer in the fluid.

14th August 2009, 05:06 AM	#14
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Alan, This method your dont wanna get in to is called Nyek?