A rapier by Pietro Hernandez

[Cerjak]

A rapier by Pietro Hernandez

This rapier has a faceted olive shaped pommel, the hilt with rest of gold decoration also an half-moon punch on the ricasso.
Any comment on it will be welcome.

Best
Cerjak

[fernando]

Great sword, Jean-Luc.
This is the first time we see here the inscription ESPADERO DEL REY on the ricasso spine of a sword; as we read DEL REY in the side you pictured, naturally the word ESPADERO appears on the other side.
Notably this master smith is not contemplated by neither Palomares nor del Canto in their works ... go figure why .
Another riddle is why this, being a Toledan famous master with his own prestige, uses the Italianized version of his first name, Pietro instead of Pedro; as we start from the principle that such spelling doesn't originate in forgeries introduced in the market by less famous competitors.
It seems as, although hardly discerned, there are other marks in your blade, which wouldn't surprise you, as apparently Pedro Hernandez used a few symbols all together, as you may see in Gyngel's work, for one.

.

[mariusgmioc]

Whether it was made by Pedro Hernandez himself or not, I cannot say, but it certainly is a very well made rapier!

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by fernando

Great sword, Jean-Luc.
This is the first time we see here the inscription ESPADERO DEL REY on the ricasso spine of a sword; as we read DEL REY in the side you pictured, naturally the word ESPADERO appears on the other side.
Notably this master smith is not contemplated by neither Palomares nor del Canto in their works ... go figure why .
Another riddle is why this, being a Toledan famous master with his own prestige, uses the Italianized version of his first name, Pietro instead of Pedro; as we start from the principle that such spelling doesn't originate in forgeries introduced in the market by less famous competitors.
It seems as, although hardly discerned, there are other marks in your blade, which wouldn't surprise you, as apparently Pedro Hernandez used a few symbols all together, as you may see in Gyngel's workl, for one.

.

Fernando,

Many thanks for your interesting comment, It “s a real opportunity to receive an answer from the specialist of the Spanish swords.

Best
Jean-Luc

[fernando]

Ne rigole pas, Jean-Luc.
What i know of these things is next to nothing. It won't take too long before real knowledged members correct my humble assumptions.

[Jim McDougall]

It is really hard to determine a match to these rapiers with their variations in guard systems, but in going through Norman (1980, "The Rapier and Small Sword 1460-1820") one of the most compelling in similarity is #69 (p.141). This is listed as c.1560-1640, a considerable range for a 'type' but the earliest example seen is in the portrait of Fernando Alvarez de Toledo, 3rd Duke of Alba (by Alonso Sanchez Coello date, 1567).


The pommel of elongated olive form (see #36, Norman, p.256) date of 1625-45, is shown as smooth, but faceted types seem well known in most of the forms.

The Hernandez family, according to Eric Valentine ("Rapiers", 1968. p.67) were Toledo swordsmiths with Sebastian the elder working c. 1570-1600.
Pedro (the younger) worked about 1610-1630.
Interestingly, in this reference, plate #38 is a Spanish cuphilt with date estimate c.1660, and inscribed SEBASTIAN HERNANTZ (note spelling).
Clearly a German use, as indicated in references that claim his was one of Spanish smiths whose name was often spuriously used.

Other references note spellings such as HEERNENTEEZ (Kinman, 2015), another clearly German example.
This reference notes Pedro as of Toledo 1610-30. It also notes the use of the crucifix by him, which was also used by Hannes Cleles.

Turning to rapier here, and the comments of Pedro not being mentioned by Palomares or del Canto may have been that he was absent from there.
I would note that the Gyngell compendium, much as some of the others, is often a grouping of known markings used by a maker, not necessary all at once.

I may be reaching (and I expect Jasper will correct me if wrong) but perhaps Pedro either was in Italy, or a maker in Italy chose to use his name, obviously the PIETRO a compelling note. It is also known that in Italy the half moon of this same style (with rostrillo) was used in this fashion (Kinman, p.133) to signify the espadero del rey.
This rapier seems to have Italian characteristics, but that is mere free association on my part.

With spellings, it seems that the Hernandez was more likely to be misspelled in the German cases with Sebastian's name. The Pietro is not a misspell, but a linguistic variation, which suggests contemporary with or perhaps by the maker himself in other location.

All of these ideas and so on are simply my ideas and observations which may be incorrect, but I place them regardless, and emphasize, I am NOT presuming to have any expertise of these subjects. I am however a very fascinated student of them. I hope these notes might help.

[Cerjak]

Thank you Jim

It is nice to have your always well documented comment.
Best

Jean-Luc

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I am NOT presuming to have any expertise of these subjects...

Jim, you can not presume that simply beause you are an expert; all we common mortals can do, is tease your faculties .
I don’t have Valentine’s work, or any other source from where i could have learnt that the Hernandez family was composed with Sebastian and Pedro and not of two Sebastians. My daring questioning such assumption is firstly because, according by both Palomares and also common sense, calling one person the older (el viejo) and the other the younger (el mozo) implicate that both had the same name. Not that Palomares nomina is not full of imprecisions but, so are other authors namely, for one, on what touches smiths ages and or their acting periods. Sebastian the elder could not have worked until 1600 (per Valentine) as also could not be alive in 1637 (per Palomares); according to a source i repute as accurate, he died in 1584.
This also takes somehow to questioning the working period of Pedro, if he were Sebastian’s son he could well have started working some time during (and learning with) his father’s activity, and not so much later. More consistent is the listing of Sebastian the younger, so much because, besides the said nomination of 'el mozo' he was entitled to use the same mark … whereas Pedro had a completely different array of punzones.
On the other hand, the spotting of blades made by Sebastian el mozo seem to be (for me) a hard task, as also that of his actual age or working activity, which would help a better confrontation of data.
The suggestion that Pedro is not mentioned by Palomares and del Canto (?) having as a reason the probability that he was absent from Toledo, may have some 'competition'; Palomares resourced the data one or two centuries after 'all' smiths existence and, what he did was checking on their archived marking irons and mostly on their blades, at least on (both) those he got hand of. It seems as, surprinsingly both Palomares father and son, despite having access to archives, including vital eclesiastic ones, didn’t resource much on such means. Perhaps a useful detail for perusal is to remind that it was Francisco Santiago Palomares who advanced with the material for the nomina but it was his son Francisco Javier who actually made it; and it was only several decades afterwards that this work was echoed, by Achille Jubinal whom, being a French man, corrupted some the smiths names spellings.
On the other hand, and as already mentioned in my previous post, it is clear that Pietro is not a mispelling of Pedro but an intentional attitude; whether being Pedro using an italianized version of his name to 'please' Italian clients with his export blades, an hypothesis suggested by a member in an earlier thread, or some Italian smith’s atempt to take advantage of the Spanish master prestige. It is simply implausible that Pedro Hernandez, as illiterate as he might (might) have been, made such surgical confusion with his own name.
Concerning Jean-Luc's discussed beautiful sword and waving considerations on its style and typology, is something i can not reach, due to ignorance and laziness to compare it to those in books, like Walace and Norman. But when brain storming on marks and smiths, we are aware that those are about blades, independently from the hilts they are mounted on as, so often the smith that forges the blade and takes historical advantage of having attached his mark and name on the result of his work, is not the same who makes the guards, or grips, or pommels or scabbards for the sword.

Attached a picture of Dom Francisco Santiago Palomares, at the age of 48.


.
.