Very Interesting Indian sword for discussion

RSWORD · 18th February 2005, 07:56 PM

This is a very interesting Indian sword that I would love to get more feedback. The hilt is unlike any other Indian sword and has some interesting features to it. First is the swell in the grip. This seems very much like a Persian influence. The spatulate endings to the guard are interesting and seem common to Mughal period swords. The most interesting feature is the pommel on this sword. It is rather abstract but it seems to be "Tiger'esque". Also, the terminal ending to the knucklebow is an interesting "duckbill". I note two similar "duckbills" pictured in Elgoods new book on a cloth helmet owned by Tipu. Look at the top of the nasal protector and you have two of the exact same "duckbills" curved back down the slide. I have not seen this particular decor before so I have no pretensions that the "duckbill" is an exclusive decoration to Tipu related items nor do I have any pretenses that my sword has any association with Tipu however there are some interesting features worth discussion. Also, it has a big pattern welded kilij style blade with one of the boldest patterns I have ever seen. So, has anyone ran across similar hilts before? Look forward to the discussion.

RSWORD · 19th February 2005, 03:42 AM

Well, after some additional digging I found one similar hilt example but it raises more questions than it answers. In Catalogue De La Collection D'Armes Anciennes de Charles Buttin on Planche XXXIII figure 789 there is pictured a sword with the same hilt but with a very English looking guard. The grip has the same swell and if you look close enough, it has the same type of pommel. I do not read French so I am unsure what the description states exactly but it does say "Epee Anglo-Hindoue". Apparently it has an European straight blade mounted up on this Hindu/English combination hilt. A most peculiar sword but very interesting given its grip similarity to my example. So, any other examples out there? Jens, Jim, Brian, Jeff? Any thoughts?

Jeff D · 19th February 2005, 03:47 AM

Hi Rick,

Very nice saber. In the photos it looks as if the quillions and guard are welded on. They also don't seem to follow the flow of the rest of the hilt. perhaps they are a later add on? Could you post a closer picture of the quillion and guard?

Thanks
Jeff

Jeff D · 19th February 2005, 04:21 AM

Hi again,

If you have Egerton, in his section of arms of North-Western India Plate XIII item 653 is a similar hilt which is what I suspect your hilt started as. The guard is also similar. it will be nice to hear other opinions.

All tyhe best
Jeff

Conogre · 19th February 2005, 04:57 AM

I've refrained from commenting as it seems inapropriate when all one can do is gush over a piece, but......well, gush!
Beautiful!

tom hyle · 19th February 2005, 06:36 AM

Ordinarily, each quillon has a sort of tang, and these are welded or soldered in between the two halves of the hilt.

B.I · 20th February 2005, 04:36 PM

images of a persian 'duck'. i'm a big fan of comparative iconography as a metalworker didnt necessarily just make arms and cultures were influenced 'across the board'.

CharlesS · 20th February 2005, 05:44 PM

Magnificent South Indian piece Rick! Quality from top to bottom, with some interesting "quirks"!

Radu Transylvanicus · 20th February 2005, 07:43 PM

Well, the hilt itself is Indo-Arabic, some might get tempted to associate it with Mysore due to the similarities with the ,,tiger type,, (Sultan Tipu).
The paraj (knuckle-guard) of swan type I`ve seen it on Mughal swords comming out of Gujarat mostly, examples from 17th - 18th century if memory does not play tricks on me, same hilt/pommel same richness in gold decoration.
One thing I cannot find corespondent are the unusual tholia (quillions) but our coleagues have seem to manage finding something similar even though without much data info, we see it is not an isolated case. I am fascinated by their beauty as I`ve not seen them before and I would avoid categorise them as a variation of the down-pointed quillions of the pulwar (puloar) swords.
A good post with lots to learn from, proving that still there is so much to discover still ...

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2005, 07:49 PM

This is outstanding discourse on this beautiful sabre, and excellent work with all the references cited and noted! It's always great to see observations supported with references as the 'mystery' unfolds. While I can't add much to what has been already clearly determined, I agree with the consensus of this being a southern form of weapon, and with Tipu-esque characteristics. The trefoil or fluer-de-lis form quillon terminals are interesting, and I would offer may be associated with Tipu and his father's close associations with the French and their influences militarily. From another perspective, I cannot help but notice the similarity of these fluerets to the upper part of the hilt of the 'anthropomorphic ' form of the chilanum ( Elgood "Hindu Arms & Ritual", p.175, #16.28 ) which is from Deccani sultanate early 17th c. possibly earlier.

Another question concerning the interesting material on the 'duckbill' form on the curled back knuckleguard. In a discussion with a collector some time ago, we were discussing this distinct feature as often occurs on Central Asian edged weapons, such as certain Afghan and other examples. These extremely stylized forms often seemed to resemble either nagan or dragon type figures, at that point not considering the 'duck' possibility, and he suggested these were something he called 'ice bird' but could not distinguish further.
Could anyone elaborate on what type bird this might be and significance on weapons there?

Best regards,
Jim

Radu: just noticed your post citing the swan, could this be what the reference to ice-bird might be?

RSWORD · 20th February 2005, 10:45 PM

Gentleman

Thank you for adding your thoughts. I appreciate the additional information and overall "brainstorming". I think it will take additional research and time to find another matching example with better provenance to help tie down where this thing may have originated.

The pommel is still perplexing me. Comparable Persian hilts tend to be lions and realistic. Of course, Tipu and his tiger pommels were also large and realistic. This one, which I think is closer to a tiger than a lion, is quite abstract.

Brian, if you look at the example of Tipu's helmet on p. 60, the nasal protector at the very top which extends above the top of the padding, you see the terminal ending which is a tiger. If you look at the downcurving projections from that tiger, they are elongated "duckbills". If you turn the book sideways when looking at this downcurving projection from the tiger head, I believe you will see what I am talking about.

Another interesting sword for comparison purposes is in Buttin's "Catalogue De La Collection D'Armes Anciennes" in the very back in Planche XXXII. Example 1005 is listed as an Arabic Saif, 16th or 17th century, but if you look closely at the pommel, it seems abstract and although not exactly like my example, there seems to be similarities. Buttins description, which although I do not read French, could make out that he attributes this stylized "monster" pommel to Singalese influences. I do not know that that association is accurate in this paricular case but the abstract look of the pommel was interesting.

Man, I am all over the board with this one. Sweet!

Radu Transylvanicus · 20th February 2005, 11:47 PM

Well, for what is worth my opinion as far as geo-origin my opinion is west-central India: Gujarat, Rajahstan mainly. The sword if not Mughal, is very much inspired by the Mughal armorial products. The one piece metal hilt is much like ones west of Hindoostani borders, an afghano-persian qabzah while the blade remains of Hindu style and facture, a very close relative of the popat hilt (Indian arms and armour vol. II , by Dr. Pant od National Museum in New Delhi, a treasure of a book I received recently from a dear friend ) an Hindu adoption of Persian hilt.
Now the very good news: the swan neck knuckle guards are specific to late 17th, early 18th century west central India from Punjab to Gujarat . Now if thats the case can you imagine what a real treasure this is ?
And Jim, yes, I incline thats the case with ,,ice-bird,, definition (swan-neck is kind of personal definition, not to be confused with any scholar denomination, it just seem to me as the natural name, therefore I used it). Mughal gardens were home to gracefull, exotic large birds with opulent forms and plumage, peacock being absolute king but that was a male symbol, and in order to counterbalance the yin-yang in this sabre the knuckleguard swan (female and smaller in size and importance but nevertheless gracious) vs the pommel tiger/lion ( to put an end to RSWORDS dilema India is home even now but in the past even more to both lions and tigers ) as male symbol, larger in size. What is in red colour is my pure supossition without solid suport.

20th February 2005, 04:36 PM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	images of a persian 'duck'. i'm a big fan of comparative iconography as a metalworker didnt necessarily just make arms and cultures were influenced 'across the board'. Attached Images

20th February 2005, 11:47 PM	#12
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Well, for what is worth my opinion as far as geo-origin my opinion is west-central India: Gujarat, Rajahstan mainly. The sword if not Mughal, is very much inspired by the Mughal armorial products. The one piece metal hilt is much like ones west of Hindoostani borders, an afghano-persian qabzah while the blade remains of Hindu style and facture, a very close relative of the popat hilt (Indian arms and armour vol. II , by Dr. Pant od National Museum in New Delhi, a treasure of a book I received recently from a dear friend ) an Hindu adoption of Persian hilt. Now the very good news: the swan neck knuckle guards are specific to late 17th, early 18th century west central India from Punjab to Gujarat . Now if thats the case can you imagine what a real treasure this is ? And Jim, yes, I incline thats the case with ,,ice-bird,, definition (swan-neck is kind of personal definition, not to be confused with any scholar denomination, it just seem to me as the natural name, therefore I used it). Mughal gardens were home to gracefull, exotic large birds with opulent forms and plumage, peacock being absolute king but that was a male symbol, and in order to counterbalance the yin-yang in this sabre the knuckleguard swan (female and smaller in size and importance but nevertheless gracious) vs the pommel tiger/lion ( to put an end to RSWORDS dilema India is home even now but in the past even more to both lions and tigers ) as male symbol, larger in size. What is in red colour is my pure supossition without solid suport. Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 21st February 2005 at 12:01 AM.

18th February 2005, 07:56 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Very Interesting Indian sword for discussion This is a very interesting Indian sword that I would love to get more feedback. The hilt is unlike any other Indian sword and has some interesting features to it. First is the swell in the grip. This seems very much like a Persian influence. The spatulate endings to the guard are interesting and seem common to Mughal period swords. The most interesting feature is the pommel on this sword. It is rather abstract but it seems to be "Tiger'esque". Also, the terminal ending to the knucklebow is an interesting "duckbill". I note two similar "duckbills" pictured in Elgoods new book on a cloth helmet owned by Tipu. Look at the top of the nasal protector and you have two of the exact same "duckbills" curved back down the slide. I have not seen this particular decor before so I have no pretensions that the "duckbill" is an exclusive decoration to Tipu related items nor do I have any pretenses that my sword has any association with Tipu however there are some interesting features worth discussion. Also, it has a big pattern welded kilij style blade with one of the boldest patterns I have ever seen. So, has anyone ran across similar hilts before? Look forward to the discussion. Attached Images

19th February 2005, 03:42 AM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Well, after some additional digging I found one similar hilt example but it raises more questions than it answers. In Catalogue De La Collection D'Armes Anciennes de Charles Buttin on Planche XXXIII figure 789 there is pictured a sword with the same hilt but with a very English looking guard. The grip has the same swell and if you look close enough, it has the same type of pommel. I do not read French so I am unsure what the description states exactly but it does say "Epee Anglo-Hindoue". Apparently it has an European straight blade mounted up on this Hindu/English combination hilt. A most peculiar sword but very interesting given its grip similarity to my example. So, any other examples out there? Jens, Jim, Brian, Jeff? Any thoughts?

19th February 2005, 03:47 AM	#3
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Rick, Very nice saber. In the photos it looks as if the quillions and guard are welded on. They also don't seem to follow the flow of the rest of the hilt. perhaps they are a later add on? Could you post a closer picture of the quillion and guard? Thanks Jeff

19th February 2005, 04:21 AM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi again, If you have Egerton, in his section of arms of North-Western India Plate XIII item 653 is a similar hilt which is what I suspect your hilt started as. The guard is also similar. it will be nice to hear other opinions. All tyhe best Jeff

19th February 2005, 04:57 AM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I've refrained from commenting as it seems inapropriate when all one can do is gush over a piece, but......well, gush! Beautiful!

19th February 2005, 06:36 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Ordinarily, each quillon has a sort of tang, and these are welded or soldered in between the two halves of the hilt.

20th February 2005, 05:44 PM	#8
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Magnificent South Indian piece Rick! Quality from top to bottom, with some interesting "quirks"!

20th February 2005, 07:43 PM	#9
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Well, the hilt itself is Indo-Arabic, some might get tempted to associate it with Mysore due to the similarities with the ,,tiger type,, (Sultan Tipu). The paraj (knuckle-guard) of swan type I`ve seen it on Mughal swords comming out of Gujarat mostly, examples from 17th - 18th century if memory does not play tricks on me, same hilt/pommel same richness in gold decoration. One thing I cannot find corespondent are the unusual tholia (quillions) but our coleagues have seem to manage finding something similar even though without much data info, we see it is not an isolated case. I am fascinated by their beauty as I`ve not seen them before and I would avoid categorise them as a variation of the down-pointed quillions of the pulwar (puloar) swords. A good post with lots to learn from, proving that still there is so much to discover still ...

20th February 2005, 07:49 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	This is outstanding discourse on this beautiful sabre, and excellent work with all the references cited and noted! It's always great to see observations supported with references as the 'mystery' unfolds. While I can't add much to what has been already clearly determined, I agree with the consensus of this being a southern form of weapon, and with Tipu-esque characteristics. The trefoil or fluer-de-lis form quillon terminals are interesting, and I would offer may be associated with Tipu and his father's close associations with the French and their influences militarily. From another perspective, I cannot help but notice the similarity of these fluerets to the upper part of the hilt of the 'anthropomorphic ' form of the chilanum ( Elgood "Hindu Arms & Ritual", p.175, #16.28 ) which is from Deccani sultanate early 17th c. possibly earlier. Another question concerning the interesting material on the 'duckbill' form on the curled back knuckleguard. In a discussion with a collector some time ago, we were discussing this distinct feature as often occurs on Central Asian edged weapons, such as certain Afghan and other examples. These extremely stylized forms often seemed to resemble either nagan or dragon type figures, at that point not considering the 'duck' possibility, and he suggested these were something he called 'ice bird' but could not distinguish further. Could anyone elaborate on what type bird this might be and significance on weapons there? Best regards, Jim Radu: just noticed your post citing the swan, could this be what the reference to ice-bird might be?

20th February 2005, 10:45 PM	#11
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Gentleman Thank you for adding your thoughts. I appreciate the additional information and overall "brainstorming". I think it will take additional research and time to find another matching example with better provenance to help tie down where this thing may have originated. The pommel is still perplexing me. Comparable Persian hilts tend to be lions and realistic. Of course, Tipu and his tiger pommels were also large and realistic. This one, which I think is closer to a tiger than a lion, is quite abstract. Brian, if you look at the example of Tipu's helmet on p. 60, the nasal protector at the very top which extends above the top of the padding, you see the terminal ending which is a tiger. If you look at the downcurving projections from that tiger, they are elongated "duckbills". If you turn the book sideways when looking at this downcurving projection from the tiger head, I believe you will see what I am talking about. Another interesting sword for comparison purposes is in Buttin's "Catalogue De La Collection D'Armes Anciennes" in the very back in Planche XXXII. Example 1005 is listed as an Arabic Saif, 16th or 17th century, but if you look closely at the pommel, it seems abstract and although not exactly like my example, there seems to be similarities. Buttins description, which although I do not read French, could make out that he attributes this stylized "monster" pommel to Singalese influences. I do not know that that association is accurate in this paricular case but the abstract look of the pommel was interesting. Man, I am all over the board with this one. Sweet!