Another Huge Sword

Valjhun · 23rd December 2005, 12:46 PM

What exactly is that and wich period?

EBAY LINK

Andrew · 23rd December 2005, 03:31 PM

It's a Persian Qajar revival piece. These are 19th century reproductions of earlier styles. Not normally made for use.

Welcome to the forum.

ariel · 23rd December 2005, 03:52 PM

Usually, I admire Artzi's taste and choice very much.
This particular acquisition left me speechless: Qajar revival swords are , in my opinion, nonfunctional, ceremonial, poor quality, tasteless and downright ugly

.
Does he know something about this sword I don't?

Or, did he get a special request from a customer who collects poor quality, tasteless ceremonial swords?

wolviex · 24th December 2005, 02:23 PM

I exactly understand what you mean Ariel, and if I was collecting Persian arms I would like to buy only those best examples from Safavid period. Those from Qajar times are indeed quite poor - super perfect and high quality steel cut is replaces by not perfect etching, damasce steel by poor quality and fast getting rusty steel, the beautiful ornaments and great caligraphy by something less perfect.... but! Yes there is one but. Let me quote prof. Tadeusz Majda's words from his catalogue of "Persian Art 1779-1924":

"(...)There is no doubt that Persian art of Qajar period is marked by its times - times of riots, wars, collapse of economy, influences of European countries and European arts, not always based on best sources. But it still has its special charm, characteristic with its simplicity, and what is more important, it reflects art taste of court, townspeoples, more than during Safavids rules. (...)"

In further words, professor indicate mass production, market for European countries and America, contacts and orders from outside countries, etc., everything that changed the art and market in Persia. At the same time artists were trying to continue everything what Safavids and past generations created, so they purposely imitated patterns and art from passed centuries.

And take a look at Europe in the 19th century, where we can observe the same process - neogothic, imitates of medieval, 16th and 17th centuries weapons, very often made of poor quality metals - everything what could remind passed centuries. People of this time felt they were missing those all things that passed away. So from this piont o view all these buildings, arts and other things of this period are somehow charming too

. It's a history and like everything it's deep motivated in time and period of its origin, aswell as in people that lived then.

Regards!

ariel · 24th December 2005, 03:38 PM

Perhaps, you are right....
The 19th century was a time when swords and daggers started to lose their practical value; firearms became so efficient that the military tactics had to be revised. Cold steel became decorational and ceremonial and, as a result, became either unnecessarily ornate (Caucasian weapons) or of limited quality. Yes, there still were some fabulous blades produced and there were some "old time" exploits (The Light Brigade-type), but the writing was on the wall.
Less industrial societies lagged behind in this regard and Moro weapons, for example, were still of high standard but any army aiming to become competitive by necessity abandoned the chivalrous swordplay and concentrated on firearms.
Still, Qajar swords strike me as particularly ungainly and of exceptionally low quality and appeal. There tin-plate blades with crude etching, cheap and garish decoration and exaggerated size just scream "Phony!"

Valjhun · 19th January 2006, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Usually, I admire Artzi's taste and choice very much.
This particular acquisition left me speechless: Qajar revival swords are , in my opinion, nonfunctional, ceremonial, poor quality, tasteless and downright ugly

.
Does he know something about this sword I don't?

Or, did he get a special request from a customer who collects poor quality, tasteless ceremonial swords?

Ariel,

Reviewing the items he bought, I can tell you that I admire his taste also... But if you take a look at his shop, you will find a similar example wich is for sale (acutally already on hold) for a considerable higher sum... I guess that Mr. Artzi, despite his incomparable taste, is good at math too..

Oriental-Arms · 19th January 2006, 06:55 PM

I refrained from commenting on this thread, but since it was brought up again, I wish to post a short remark:

Ariel, Thank you for your compliments. I am afraid we do not share the same taste in swords. I have examined considerable number of these ”ugly” revival swords. They have their beauty, they represent a certain tradition and culture and quite many of them are forged from very good steel, in spite of their main use as ceremonial. I am not sure as to this specific sword as I did not receive it yet, but when I do I will gladly post my opinion on it. Above all, many collectors collect them and regard them as beautiful.

I will however refrain from commenting on Valjhun last post.

Rick · 19th January 2006, 07:25 PM

Mr. Valjuhn , I find your last remark to be uncalled for and in poor taste .
You have a PM .

23rd December 2005, 12:46 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Another Huge Sword What exactly is that and wich period? EBAY LINK

23rd December 2005, 03:52 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Usually, I admire Artzi's taste and choice very much. This particular acquisition left me speechless: Qajar revival swords are , in my opinion, nonfunctional, ceremonial, poor quality, tasteless and downright ugly . Does he know something about this sword I don't? Or, did he get a special request from a customer who collects poor quality, tasteless ceremonial swords? Last edited by ariel; 23rd December 2005 at 09:28 PM.

19th January 2006, 06:55 PM	#7
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Ugly revival sword I refrained from commenting on this thread, but since it was brought up again, I wish to post a short remark: Ariel, Thank you for your compliments. I am afraid we do not share the same taste in swords. I have examined considerable number of these ”ugly” revival swords. They have their beauty, they represent a certain tradition and culture and quite many of them are forged from very good steel, in spite of their main use as ceremonial. I am not sure as to this specific sword as I did not receive it yet, but when I do I will gladly post my opinion on it. Above all, many collectors collect them and regard them as beautiful. I will however refrain from commenting on Valjhun last post.

23rd December 2005, 03:31 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	It's a Persian Qajar revival piece. These are 19th century reproductions of earlier styles. Not normally made for use. Welcome to the forum.

24th December 2005, 02:23 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	I exactly understand what you mean Ariel, and if I was collecting Persian arms I would like to buy only those best examples from Safavid period. Those from Qajar times are indeed quite poor - super perfect and high quality steel cut is replaces by not perfect etching, damasce steel by poor quality and fast getting rusty steel, the beautiful ornaments and great caligraphy by something less perfect.... but! Yes there is one but. Let me quote prof. Tadeusz Majda's words from his catalogue of "Persian Art 1779-1924": "(...)There is no doubt that Persian art of Qajar period is marked by its times - times of riots, wars, collapse of economy, influences of European countries and European arts, not always based on best sources. But it still has its special charm, characteristic with its simplicity, and what is more important, it reflects art taste of court, townspeoples, more than during Safavids rules. (...)" In further words, professor indicate mass production, market for European countries and America, contacts and orders from outside countries, etc., everything that changed the art and market in Persia. At the same time artists were trying to continue everything what Safavids and past generations created, so they purposely imitated patterns and art from passed centuries. And take a look at Europe in the 19th century, where we can observe the same process - neogothic, imitates of medieval, 16th and 17th centuries weapons, very often made of poor quality metals - everything what could remind passed centuries. People of this time felt they were missing those all things that passed away. So from this piont o view all these buildings, arts and other things of this period are somehow charming too . It's a history and like everything it's deep motivated in time and period of its origin, aswell as in people that lived then. Regards!

24th December 2005, 03:38 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Perhaps, you are right.... The 19th century was a time when swords and daggers started to lose their practical value; firearms became so efficient that the military tactics had to be revised. Cold steel became decorational and ceremonial and, as a result, became either unnecessarily ornate (Caucasian weapons) or of limited quality. Yes, there still were some fabulous blades produced and there were some "old time" exploits (The Light Brigade-type), but the writing was on the wall. Less industrial societies lagged behind in this regard and Moro weapons, for example, were still of high standard but any army aiming to become competitive by necessity abandoned the chivalrous swordplay and concentrated on firearms. Still, Qajar swords strike me as particularly ungainly and of exceptionally low quality and appeal. There tin-plate blades with crude etching, cheap and garish decoration and exaggerated size just scream "Phony!"

19th January 2006, 07:25 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,288	Mr. Valjuhn , I find your last remark to be uncalled for and in poor taste . You have a PM .