Karabela? Persian? Balkan?

eftihis · 14th July 2006, 07:17 PM

Hallo,
Any opinions on this sword please? It is very well made, has a great feeling on handling, and it looks of having a lot of age. The blade has wide and a narrower fuller that start that do not cover all length of the blade. There is a star on the blade. The handle is chisseled with birds and flowers. To me the sword has details that look like persian but also like balkan swords. But some elements remind karabella. Any ideas?

Valjhun · 14th July 2006, 11:40 PM

Persian and verry fine. Possibly older blade with qajar era hilt.

ariel · 15th July 2006, 02:09 AM

Why do we call it Karabela if it is Persian?
As far as I know, the name Karabela is of European origin, mostly Polish.
According to Z. Zybulski, the potential origins are:
Cara e bella ( Italian for " deaar ann beautiful")
Arabella ( Italian for "Arabian")
Karbala ( town in Iraq)
Karabel ( town in Turkey)
Is there a special name for a saber with an "eagle head" handle in Iran or Turkey? Tough to imagine that Turks or Iranians called it Karabela.
What about Hungary or the Balkans?

S.Al-Anizi · 15th July 2006, 05:28 AM

Nice sword. Interesting to see the star of david (seal of solomon) on a Persian blade. I dont think the persian shiism used this mark. It was more connected to the Ottoman sunni empire, and its arab lands.

Valjhun · 15th July 2006, 12:33 PM

Yes, I agree, the "david" strar is ottoma, maybe even caucasus. Reminds me of some shashka blade, but the hilt is persian I think.

ariel · 15th July 2006, 01:53 PM

Caucasian "shashka" blades were widely exported to as far as Oman in the 19th century (the origin of curve-bladed Kattaras).
But this one doesn't strike me as Caucasian.

Radu Transylvanicus · 22nd July 2006, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Why do we call it Karabela if it is Persian?
As far as I know, the name Karabela is of European origin, mostly Polish.
What about Hungary or the Balkans?

All people of the Balkans pretty much reffer to it as "Karabela" and the only thing different I can help you with is that sometimes the type of cossguard is named "shariban", meaning moustache, hence the striking resemblance with a French chef's upper lip

. The most important elements are the crossguard and then the eagle head pommel, not necesarilly the blade which can be straight and still qualify as a karabella.
Generalising many museums reffer to them as Pallasch (German) palasz (Hungarian) Palos (Romanian pron. palosh) or Pala or Palah past the East borders of Europe. Its a very vague and arguable therm but nonetheless, not incorrect.
INMHO I see a posibility of this Karabela not being Persian, have you asked Wolviex yet?
Probably seven out of ten karabelas in Europe are Polish, the rest mostly in Hungarian kingdom or vassal princely states like Transylvania, where most of karabellas comming from Persia were rehilted and bejewelled like the famous one for Miklos Zrinyi, from 16th century completely covered in thick gold and gems, work done in Transylvania but sword was traded from Persia;today part of the Collection of Hungarian National Museum in Budapest.
I heard the therm "Qaddara" used by Persian and Ottoman in conjunction with the karabelas sources if I remember correctly but to confuse us further the therm is also asociated with the kindjals. Others, mostly when from Persian-Mughal-Afghan parts reffer to it as "Poulwar", I heard that one many times and I preffer it; therefore keeping matters simple: if Eastearn European or Turkish is a "karabela" or if loose features, safely stick with "palasch" and if further Middle East or Indian subcontinent to me is a "poulwar"
The Golden age of the karabela was in the 17th & 18th century when most nobles would own at least two of them, one for war and one for parade, a lighter and more ostentaciously decorated version.

ariel · 22nd July 2006, 08:12 PM

You are right: that is what it's called in Europe.
But what about Turkey or Iran?

Radu Transylvanicus · 22nd July 2006, 08:18 PM

youre too fast. I was still updating my post while you answered

eftihis · 27th September 2006, 10:38 AM

Hallo all, i have just seen the photos i attach in the great new book of Manoucher "arms and armor from Iran".
In the photos are swords that exist on Iranian museums and belong to the Zand era, (arround 1750, before the Quajar).
The similarities are obvious, and allthough there is no exactly the same swords, its elements exist in the swords of the photos.
Therefore it is for sure Persian, made during the Zand era.

Valjhun · 27th September 2006, 12:58 PM

I still think it likely an early Qajar with a shashka blade.

S.Al-Anizi · 27th September 2006, 02:00 PM

The blade has no markings that can tell if its persian, but it has a mark, the star, which says its not. The hilt is certainly qajar.

mavi1970 · 27th September 2006, 03:11 PM

Actually, karabela is also loosely translated in turkish also Ariel. kara for black and bela for pain/annoyance/giving or making trouble. So karabela is just not a loose translation in Italian. How it applies i dont know, just my 2 cents worth. but nice sword either way.

Rivkin · 27th September 2006, 04:20 PM

It is possible that both blade and hilt are kadjar. The star symbol actually appears in Azerbaijan, both Persian and independent; here one can see a quadara with Qajar coins, making persian attribution easy. Again one might speculate that the blade is from somewhere else, but I believe it is a local Iranian (Azerbaijani ?) production:
http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1170
Slightly more modern:
http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=135

14th July 2006, 07:17 PM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 506	Karabela? Persian? Balkan? Hallo, Any opinions on this sword please? It is very well made, has a great feeling on handling, and it looks of having a lot of age. The blade has wide and a narrower fuller that start that do not cover all length of the blade. There is a star on the blade. The handle is chisseled with birds and flowers. To me the sword has details that look like persian but also like balkan swords. But some elements remind karabella. Any ideas? Attached Images

27th September 2006, 10:38 AM	#10
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 506	It is definitely persian, the Zand period Hallo all, i have just seen the photos i attach in the great new book of Manoucher "arms and armor from Iran". In the photos are swords that exist on Iranian museums and belong to the Zand era, (arround 1750, before the Quajar). The similarities are obvious, and allthough there is no exactly the same swords, its elements exist in the swords of the photos. Therefore it is for sure Persian, made during the Zand era. Attached Images

14th July 2006, 11:40 PM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Persian and verry fine. Possibly older blade with qajar era hilt.

15th July 2006, 02:09 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Why do we call it Karabela if it is Persian? As far as I know, the name Karabela is of European origin, mostly Polish. According to Z. Zybulski, the potential origins are: Cara e bella ( Italian for " deaar ann beautiful") Arabella ( Italian for "Arabian") Karbala ( town in Iraq) Karabel ( town in Turkey) Is there a special name for a saber with an "eagle head" handle in Iran or Turkey? Tough to imagine that Turks or Iranians called it Karabela. What about Hungary or the Balkans?

15th July 2006, 05:28 AM	#4
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Nice sword. Interesting to see the star of david (seal of solomon) on a Persian blade. I dont think the persian shiism used this mark. It was more connected to the Ottoman sunni empire, and its arab lands.

15th July 2006, 12:33 PM	#5
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Yes, I agree, the "david" strar is ottoma, maybe even caucasus. Reminds me of some shashka blade, but the hilt is persian I think.

15th July 2006, 01:53 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Caucasian "shashka" blades were widely exported to as far as Oman in the 19th century (the origin of curve-bladed Kattaras). But this one doesn't strike me as Caucasian.

22nd July 2006, 08:12 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You are right: that is what it's called in Europe. But what about Turkey or Iran?

22nd July 2006, 08:18 PM	#9
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	youre too fast. I was still updating my post while you answered

27th September 2006, 12:58 PM	#11
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	I still think it likely an early Qajar with a shashka blade.

27th September 2006, 02:00 PM	#12
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	The blade has no markings that can tell if its persian, but it has a mark, the star, which says its not. The hilt is certainly qajar.

27th September 2006, 03:11 PM	#13
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	Actually, karabela is also loosely translated in turkish also Ariel. kara for black and bela for pain/annoyance/giving or making trouble. So karabela is just not a loose translation in Italian. How it applies i dont know, just my 2 cents worth. but nice sword either way.

27th September 2006, 04:20 PM	#14
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	It is possible that both blade and hilt are kadjar. The star symbol actually appears in Azerbaijan, both Persian and independent; here one can see a quadara with Qajar coins, making persian attribution easy. Again one might speculate that the blade is from somewhere else, but I believe it is a local Iranian (Azerbaijani ?) production: http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1170 Slightly more modern: http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=135