Boabdil swords and Jineta

[Kubur]

Hi Guys,

I was looking in our forum for infos about jineta and Boabdil swords and i found only one descent thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=jineta

Some posts are very interesting. The problem is that the original post was about the drooping quillons and not specificaly on the Jineta.

Do you have more informations about these swords? Their number in the world? (Ibrahim posted something about it), their copies / reproductions?
I saw many of them of different qualities...

Thank you for you help - and knowledge!

Kubur

[Jim McDougall]

That thread from 2008 was a remarkable exercise, and had a great deal of information about the Hispano-Moresque swords (Boabdil was only one user of them rather than a descriptive term). The term 'jineta' refers to light horseman and may derive from the Berber 'zanete' with similar meaning for the light cavalry used in Spain responding to Umayyad invaders in the 8th century.

It does not seem that the stylistic form regarded as 'jineta' (but also Nasrid) became known until 13th century during the 'Reconquista' ending the Muslim rule in Andalusia in 1491.....that was where Boabdil the Nasrid ruler was defeated.


While this synopsis is perhaps not as accurate as more thorough research might reveal, it gives an idea of the time frame.


Swords of the Nasrid/Hispano-Moresque styles are pretty rare, and I know only of examples in museums in Spain. They are best described in Calvert (1907), "Spanish Arms & Armour", although Nicolle's works have great coverage as noted in the discussions in the linked thread. Bibliographies there as well as even in the Osprey monographs are very thorough.


In the original thread there was some great discussion which I enjoyed very much and Marc (who left shortly later) and Gonzalo added outstanding and detailed research.

It was the brilliant input by Ibrahiim several years later that brought in a good deal of outstanding and pertinent data and insight showing comparisons and plausible connections and differences between these and more recent Arab swords. That input actually brought back Gonzalo from hiatus and rekindled more valuable discussion.


Hopefully this gives a bit of overview that might be helpful. I think the discussions in the link attached here are more on the overall style of the Nasrid swords in which the 'drooping quillons' were a distictive feature.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

That thread from 2008 was a remarkable exercise, and had a great deal of information about the Hispano-Moresque swords (Boabdil was only one user of them rather than a descriptive term).

It does not seem that the stylistic form regarded as 'jineta' (but also Nasrid) became known until 13th century during the 'Reconquista' ending the Muslim rule in Andalusia in 1491.....that was where Boabdil the Nasrid ruler was defeated.

Swords of the Nasrid/Hispano-Moresque styles are pretty rare, and I know only of examples in museums in Spain. They are best described in Calvert (1907), "Spanish Arms & Armour", although Nicolle's works have great coverage as noted in the discussions in the linked thread. Bibliographies there as well as even in the Osprey monographs are very thorough.

Thanks, Jim, for the much-needed clarification on terminology, especially to counter the common use of Boabdil as an identifier and general descriptor of the genre. But didn't the Nasrid Dynasty and its capital Granada fall to Ferd and Izzie in 1492? I seem to recall that it was the same year as the expulsion of the Jews and Columbus' first voyage.

Yes, the best surviving ones are in Spain, a complete one (down to the scabbard belt) in astoundingly good condition is in the Museo del Ejército de Madrid (you can see images in Ada Brunn Hoffmeyer's "From Medieval Sword to Renaissance Rapier" in Robt Held (ed) ART, ARMS, AND ARMOUR (1979), p 58. Years ago someone gave me a 35mm print image of a really nice one in the Musée de l'Armée in Paris. but I can't seem to locate it at the moment.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Philip,
Yup, you're right it was actually on Jan 2nd but Ferd and Izzie summoned Muhammed XII (Boabdil) to surrender in 1491 a short time before that so technically 1492. In any case, it was the end of Nasrid rule in Andalusian Spain of the time.

The profound influences of the Nasrid dynasty not only deeply influenced Spain in continuum despite the end of Muslim rule, but filtered into Europe and many cultures in addition to the remaining influence in the Maghreb. It is remarkable that these swords, which I think of as Hispano-Moresque, do not remain in larger number and even those which remain have been challenged as far as authenticity and provenance.
I did not know of the one in Musee d'le Armee in Paris, and excellent reference added in the Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer article in Held (1979). I imagine there must be other articles in "Gladius", the arms journal in Spain, but have not checked their index.

[ariel]

Fred and Izzie.....
Sounds like a couple in SF bathhouse:-)

[Philip]

Originally Posted by ariel

Fred and Izzie.....
Sounds like a couple in SF bathhouse:-)

Haha Ariel. It's "Ferd" as in Ferdinand, not Fred. But the imagery is highly amusing. When I was in college we used to sing a ribald ballad about Christopher Columbus, with some hilarious but extremely off-color references to the royal couple that would offend any patriotic Spaniard and are definitely not fit for a dignified and erudite venue such as this forum. If the mood strikes I might be inclined to belt out the verses at the Baltimore arms fair, after a few drinks...

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is remarkable that these swords, which I think of as Hispano-Moresque, do not remain in larger number and even those which remain have been challenged as far as authenticity and provenance.

Jim, do you have the magnificent and very weighty exhibit catalog The Arts of the Muslim Knight: the Furisiyya Art Foundation Collection ed by Basher Mohamed (Milan, 2007)? There is a discussion with double-page and centerfold photos (pp 44-47) of a remarkable and perplexing sword whose blade is identified as Nasrid, 14th cent. from its inscriptions, but for all intents and purposes this blade (single edged, spear-tipped, one narrow dorsal fuller each side and a supplementary fuller at the ricasso) is the most un-Islamic thing imaginable in terms of form. If you looked at it, the opinion would undoubtedly be a backsword blade of "firangi" type commonly seen on Indian swords of four or more centuries later. Furthermore, the hilt resembles those Hispano-Portuguese "crab claw" swords from the beginning of the 16th cent. that were widely imitated in crude form in Kongo. But the hilt, according to Mr Mohamed, is said to be of 19th cent. manufacture.

This is an intriguing sword, the blade defies conventional perceptions and I don't know what to make of a hilt that is said to be 19th cent. on it (a revival of a long-obsolete form). I regret not posting a scan of the image(s) simply because the large-format pages, on which the sword appears on two facing pages and again on a three-sheet foldout, are too large for my scanner.

At any rate, the catalog commentary has something interesting to say about the Hispano-Moresque so-called jinetasthat are the real subject of this thread. According to Mr Mohamed, there are only six known examples, and their blades are nondescript, uninscribed, and do not resemble any comparable double-edged blades from other Islamic culture-spheres. This group was reportedly exhibited at the Alhambra in 1992 to mark the cinquecentennial of the conquest. You might want to look for the exhibition catalog, Al-Andalus: the Art of Islamic Spain (Metro. Mus. of Art, 1997) which has images of these swords. I don't have a copy but it's on the "get" list as of now!

That being said, it might be appropriate to examine some of Mr Mohamed's assertions regarding this small genre. As to their dissimilarity to other Islamic double-edged blades, if we could compare images of all six surviving examples with the counterparts to this type in the Topkapi Sarayi Museum collection, featured in Ünsal Yücel's Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths, we might have a better idea of the degree of dissimilarity and whether it is significant.

Based on the images available to me at present, the Topkapi's published blades are of flattened lenticular cross section except for one with full length wide shallow fullers. The jinete sword published in Held (referenced in prior post) has a half-length deep and narrow fuller, looking for all the world like Oakeshott's Subtype XIIIb. It would be great to see what the other survivors look like.

All of the above referenced blades have similar ogival tip profiles, regardless of fullering or or other details.

As to inscriptions or the lack thereof, the example published in Held does show a circular cartouche, bridging the fuller, that contains some squiggles including something looking like an S, which in the book illustration is of insufficient resolution to decipher. Whether that qualifies as an "inscription" awaits better imagery. Let's hope that the Al-Andalus catalog provides us more to go on.

[Kubur]

Thank you Jim, it's a very clear and net abstract.

I will copy and paste the most relevant informations and pictures on Jineta / Boabdil swords of the previous thread here for all the forum members and visitors.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

... Years ago someone gave me a 35mm print image of a really nice one in the Musée de l'Armée in Paris. but I can't seem to locate it at the moment...

Then Philip, you will have to satisfy with a 2D image of the one in the Middle Ages Museum of Cluny


.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by fernando

Then Philip, you will have to satisfy with a 2D image of the one in the Middle Ages Museum of Cluny
.

Are you sure Cluny?
I was thinking the National library

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bt...f/f1.item.zoom

Another one in Paris
with a different kind of blade

http://www.musee-armee.fr/collection...-boadbdil.html

[Kubur]

Question the first Jineta has a German blade from late 16th early 17th c.
Is it common to have Jineta with late blades?
Do you know if the Spanish examples are the same?
It's probably logic when you look at the quality of the hilts and scabbards.
It might explain why these swords survived until our days...

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Kubur

... Are you sure Cluny?
I was thinking the National library ...

Well ...

.