VOC Hanger 1761 Amsterdam

cornelistromp · 23rd January 2017, 06:55 PM

This voc cutlass was in my collection nevertheless I sold it.
at that time I drew a clear boundary at 1600.

for rare weapons I'd like to make an exception.

Now happy it found its way back to my collection

I'm looking for images of original voc cutlasses, so no reproduction pictures.

are there members who have some and can post it here ?

thanks + regards
Jasper

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2017, 05:36 AM

A great topic Jasper!
These VOC markings have always intrigued me, and finding these hangers/cutlasses intact seems a challenge as so many of these blades found their way into all manner of ethnographic weapons in the 'East Indies'.
This sword you have is one of the 'classic' examples I have only seen photos of, WOW!
I am curious on the year marking invariably placed on these blades below the VOC and chamber (there were 6) letter mark. As with yours the 'A' is of course for Amsterdam, with others being Middelburg; Hoorn; Enkhuizen; Delft and Rotterdam (the R below the VOC rather than above).

I am wondering just when the VOC started this convention of year marking and why. Also, is it true that these blades were almost invariably produced in Solingen and assembled in Koln for the VOC?
Rather than being issued to sailors and troops, I have understood these were made available for purchase.
I have seen one identical to yours with blade date 1794, the latest date I have seen...the company technically dissolved 1799 I believe.

Just reviewing notes and would be grateful for your insight re: these swords.
I join you in hoping others out there will share their VOC swords and perhaps the various remountings of these blades.

Thanks very much,
Jim

cornelistromp · 24th January 2017, 08:39 AM

Hi Jim,

yes a lot of questions not only by you

a few things we know ;

I have four statements that may be considered personal assumption.

statement 1:
these type of hanger is used by sailors and troops and were no gifts or processional weapons !
see picture from Blanke wapens /Puype, a sailor of the regiment Fourgeaud 1772-79 in Suriname wearing a hanger of this type. btw I'm ashamed of the dutch colonial past.

JP puype held a lecture in the 70ties on the topic "From boating and fight -. Tactics and weapons in the sea battle during the third quarter of the 17th century. "
quote"
The bladed weapons are of interest to our argument, since around the middle of the 17th century, first types were developed and intended specifically for the sea service. Those were enteric cutters, which in large quantities were ordered by the admiralties. A "houwer" was a sword with a short, relatively heavy blade designed to cut and less for stabbing. Often the hand guard was bulky and could e.g. consist of a large, convex plate.
unquote.

statement 2:
this type of seaservice hanger is a development of the dussage and has been used over a long period of time. 1600-1800

statement 3:
the blades were imported from Solingen and other production cities and assembled in the Netherlands.

statement 4:
loose blades were carried as cargo on the ships and were used in the colonies as spare parts, where they occasionally were given a local hilt.

best,
jasper

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2017, 06:12 PM

Thank you so much for these answers Jasper.
BTW, no need for concerns over the often unfortunate circumstances that actually seem typical in virtually all colonial or other conquering situations throughout history. Such things are an inherently ugly business, but it is best to remain objective as we examine weapons and material matters,

The idea that individuals 'purchased' their own weapons was read somewhere passim, and it is maddening when I don't record the source in my notes! Perhaps it is that the VOC was of course a private concern, and possibly such equipment was deducted from pay.

I had read that the blades were Solingen products, and it makes sense that they were assembled at their respective chambers. That would account for the supply of blades which were carried aboard ships, for trade as well as probably repair purposes.
* but why the year? was this administrative? certainly not commemorative as these run from 1740s into 90s.

The dusagge was certainly a versatile weapon and served well on vessels as well as a hanger for infantry forces. Those well shell guard were of course well known in pirate lore, and often colloquially termed 'shells' in that case.

cornelistromp · 24th January 2017, 06:46 PM

Amsterdam VOC 1685 and two ex Visser collection

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2017, 08:10 PM

Thanks Jasper,
The 1685 is by far the earliest year I have seen on these.
It seems the most predominant is the majuscule A with the drop down V center bar, and it seems the most structured letter. The character and strength of the VOC seems to vary from thinly scribed to heavy with sometimes somewhat irregular lines. .
Naturally this is Amsterdam, by far the major center and chamber, and I always wonder why the usual city stamp marks used on other blades does not occur. Is this because the company was outside the auspices of the usual guild or local controls ?

Also,the other chamber letters seem typically irregular, and not with the structured character of the Amsterdam A. I have understood the R for Rotterdam is situated below the VOC device rather than over as in the other letter markings.

I had heard also of a 'Z' marking for Zeeland, anything to that?

Great examples!!! Thank you, I am very envious of these amazing examples!

Maurice · 25th January 2017, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am curious on the year marking invariably placed on these blades below the VOC and chamber (there were 6) letter mark. As with yours the 'A' is of course for Amsterdam, with others being Middelburg; Hoorn; Enkhuizen; Delft and Rotterdam (the R below the VOC rather than above).

Hello Jim,

most of the time the letter of the chamber was stamped above the VOC stamp, but sometimes below the VOC stamp. Not specificly the "R". I have seen blades with the "R" above the VOC mark, and also with the "E" below the VOC mark.
Alas, indeed I have seen also a VOC blade with the "R" below the VOC mark.
But in general most of the time they are depicted above.

Kind regards,
Maurice

cornelistromp · 26th January 2017, 10:04 AM

Dutch naval cutlasses in my collection.

1. Admiralty of Amsterdam
2. VOC Hoorn dated 1731
3. VOC Amsterdam dated 1761 post #1

I will later post some more pictures

best,
Jasper

Maurice · 26th January 2017, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Dutch naval cutlasses in my collection.

1. Admiralty of Amsterdam
2. VOC Hoorn dated 1731
3. VOC Amsterdam dated 1761 post #1

I will later post some more pictures

best,
Jasper

Hello Jasper,

those cutlasses are really great!
Looking forward to see some additional pics of the stamps in the blade.

Thank you for sharing,
Vriendelijke groeten,
Maurice

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2017, 05:24 PM

Maurice, thank you so much for your well explained answers! It is good to be learning more on the very esoteric details of these fascinating swords. I very much appreciate this added detail, and am grateful for Jasper posting this topic and sharing his examples.

I know the guys on ethnographic have posted many examples over the years of these blades in many unusual mounts, and it is great to see these in their original settings!

AHorsa · 3rd February 2021, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Dutch naval cutlasses in my collection.

1. Admiralty of Amsterdam
2. VOC Hoorn dated 1731
3. VOC Amsterdam dated 1761 post #1

I will later post some more pictures

best,
Jasper

Quite similar pieces are dated to the early 17th century (e.g. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22245 see #8)

Was this style / model in use for such a long time?

Best regards
Andreas

24th January 2017, 05:36 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	A great topic Jasper! These VOC markings have always intrigued me, and finding these hangers/cutlasses intact seems a challenge as so many of these blades found their way into all manner of ethnographic weapons in the 'East Indies'. This sword you have is one of the 'classic' examples I have only seen photos of, WOW! I am curious on the year marking invariably placed on these blades below the VOC and chamber (there were 6) letter mark. As with yours the 'A' is of course for Amsterdam, with others being Middelburg; Hoorn; Enkhuizen; Delft and Rotterdam (the R below the VOC rather than above). I am wondering just when the VOC started this convention of year marking and why. Also, is it true that these blades were almost invariably produced in Solingen and assembled in Koln for the VOC? Rather than being issued to sailors and troops, I have understood these were made available for purchase. I have seen one identical to yours with blade date 1794, the latest date I have seen...the company technically dissolved 1799 I believe. Just reviewing notes and would be grateful for your insight re: these swords. I join you in hoping others out there will share their VOC swords and perhaps the various remountings of these blades. Thanks very much, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 24th January 2017 at 05:47 AM.

24th January 2017, 08:39 AM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Hi Jim, yes a lot of questions not only by you a few things we know ; I have four statements that may be considered personal assumption. statement 1: these type of hanger is used by sailors and troops and were no gifts or processional weapons ! see picture from Blanke wapens /Puype, a sailor of the regiment Fourgeaud 1772-79 in Suriname wearing a hanger of this type. btw I'm ashamed of the dutch colonial past. JP puype held a lecture in the 70ties on the topic "From boating and fight -. Tactics and weapons in the sea battle during the third quarter of the 17th century. " quote" The bladed weapons are of interest to our argument, since around the middle of the 17th century, first types were developed and intended specifically for the sea service. Those were enteric cutters, which in large quantities were ordered by the admiralties. A "houwer" was a sword with a short, relatively heavy blade designed to cut and less for stabbing. Often the hand guard was bulky and could e.g. consist of a large, convex plate. unquote. statement 2: this type of seaservice hanger is a development of the dussage and has been used over a long period of time. 1600-1800 statement 3: the blades were imported from Solingen and other production cities and assembled in the Netherlands. statement 4: loose blades were carried as cargo on the ships and were used in the colonies as spare parts, where they occasionally were given a local hilt. best, jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 24th January 2017 at 02:19 PM.

24th January 2017, 06:46 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Amsterdam VOC 1685 and two ex Visser collection Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 24th January 2017 at 07:01 PM.

23rd January 2017, 06:55 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	VOC Hanger 1761 Amsterdam This voc cutlass was in my collection nevertheless I sold it. at that time I drew a clear boundary at 1600. for rare weapons I'd like to make an exception. Now happy it found its way back to my collection I'm looking for images of original voc cutlasses, so no reproduction pictures. are there members who have some and can post it here ? thanks + regards Jasper Attached Images

24th January 2017, 06:12 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Thank you so much for these answers Jasper. BTW, no need for concerns over the often unfortunate circumstances that actually seem typical in virtually all colonial or other conquering situations throughout history. Such things are an inherently ugly business, but it is best to remain objective as we examine weapons and material matters, The idea that individuals 'purchased' their own weapons was read somewhere passim, and it is maddening when I don't record the source in my notes! Perhaps it is that the VOC was of course a private concern, and possibly such equipment was deducted from pay. I had read that the blades were Solingen products, and it makes sense that they were assembled at their respective chambers. That would account for the supply of blades which were carried aboard ships, for trade as well as probably repair purposes. * but why the year? was this administrative? certainly not commemorative as these run from 1740s into 90s. The dusagge was certainly a versatile weapon and served well on vessels as well as a hanger for infantry forces. Those well shell guard were of course well known in pirate lore, and often colloquially termed 'shells' in that case.

24th January 2017, 08:10 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Thanks Jasper, The 1685 is by far the earliest year I have seen on these. It seems the most predominant is the majuscule A with the drop down V center bar, and it seems the most structured letter. The character and strength of the VOC seems to vary from thinly scribed to heavy with sometimes somewhat irregular lines. . Naturally this is Amsterdam, by far the major center and chamber, and I always wonder why the usual city stamp marks used on other blades does not occur. Is this because the company was outside the auspices of the usual guild or local controls ? Also,the other chamber letters seem typically irregular, and not with the structured character of the Amsterdam A. I have understood the R for Rotterdam is situated below the VOC device rather than over as in the other letter markings. I had heard also of a 'Z' marking for Zeeland, anything to that? Great examples!!! Thank you, I am very envious of these amazing examples!

26th January 2017, 10:04 AM	#8
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Dutch naval cutlasses in my collection. 1. Admiralty of Amsterdam 2. VOC Hoorn dated 1731 3. VOC Amsterdam dated 1761 post #1 I will later post some more pictures best, Jasper Attached Images

26th January 2017, 05:24 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Maurice, thank you so much for your well explained answers! It is good to be learning more on the very esoteric details of these fascinating swords. I very much appreciate this added detail, and am grateful for Jasper posting this topic and sharing his examples. I know the guys on ethnographic have posted many examples over the years of these blades in many unusual mounts, and it is great to see these in their original settings!