Unknown short sword. Where's it from? Philippines? Naga?

RSWORD · 3rd July 2014, 01:36 PM

It is not often that I run across something I haven't seen before so when I do I tend to gravitate towards those items. This is a very interesting piece. It is about 21" long with a very thick and heavy blade. This is probably the reason for the long steel ferrule. The grip is of unusual form but is 8 sided. I would place it in the 19th century so it has very good age. The 8 sided grip reminds me of the Philippines but the shape of the handle is unique for that region. The blade shape is also a bit unique. Very thick spine, heavy and currently out of polish so unsure of the blade construction. The long steel ferrule reminds me a bit of Kalinga axe but the weld is nearly seamless where as you tend to have an overlapping weld on a Kalinga axe. The other region I gravitated towards was the Naga/Assam regions. Again, not an exact match to anything from that region but certain similarities can be found. I'm hoping the collective knowledge of the forum has seen this form somewhere in an obscure reference or can lend additional hypothesis to the mix to help on the road to discovery.

Sajen · 3rd July 2014, 09:12 PM

Hello Rick,

my feeling tells me somewhere from the mainland of SEA but frankly said I've never seen something similar.

Regards,
Detlef

Henk · 3rd July 2014, 10:13 PM

First guess is a dha-like something, Could also be a malay or indonesian chopper.

Blade has something from a sikin panjang. Could be a rehilted thing from that area as well.

Same story as Detlef told you, and i haven't seen anything like this either.

Robert · 4th July 2014, 12:15 AM

Hello Rick, It sure is nice to know that I am not alone when it comes to not being able to pass up the odd item when it shows up.

I wish I could help on this, but like everyone else I have never seen anything like this before.

Best,
Robert

Ian · 4th July 2014, 05:18 AM

Hi Rick:

That's definitely unusual. It appears to have been much used and resharpened many times. There is quite a deficit in the edge at the center of the blade, suggesting it has been used repeatedly as a chopper. So maybe more of a tool than a weapon.

Nothing about it really speaks to a specific origin.

Ian.

colin henshaw · 4th July 2014, 09:27 AM

The structure of the piece reminds me a bit of this knife/chopper I had and posted on the forum a couple of years ago - the metal sleeve and faceted finial are both commonalities. My knife was thought to be from Java in the end.

RSWORD · 5th July 2014, 03:11 AM

Thanks for the feedback guys. As I suspected we have a wide range of opinions which adds to the mystique and interest in this piece. If only these things could talk. I will review all the thoughts and add to them to mine and continue to work on a possible origin. Many thanks for the feedback.

Ian · 5th July 2014, 06:17 AM

Rick:

On further reflection I think the clue to what this was used for lies in the thickness of the blade. You say "very thick," but just how thick? If the spine measures more than a centimeter across, then the overwhelming use for such a blade in SE Asia is for splitting coconuts or chopping branches and small trees for firewood. Yes, we do find occasional weapons with blades of that thickness (the parang latok from Borneo, some of the klewang from Aceh, etc.), but seldom the focused wear on the blade that this one shows.

Since the blade has seen some hard use, probably over an extended period of time, it is possible that the handle is a replacement. And the scabbard also looks fairly recent in manufacture, with those well preserved rattan strips and no obvious dings.

My best guess would be a coconut splitting knife from northern Burma/Nagaland/Assam.

Ian.

Maurice · 5th July 2014, 10:54 AM

Hello Rick,

It is from the Tengger Mountains.
In the museum of Leiden are several of them, all from the Tenggerese..

A good Belgium friendcollector of mine, who alerted me on your post, has also one in his private collection and did some research before and knew what it was.

Regards from Belgium and the Netherlands!

Ian · 5th July 2014, 12:14 PM

COLLECTIE TROPENMUSEUM Portret van een oude Tenggerese man TMnr 10005231.jpg

Portrait of an old Tenggerese man

Dated 1910

Sajen · 5th July 2014, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Hello Rick,

It is from the Tengger Mountains.
In the museum of Leiden are several of them, all from the Tenggerese..

A good Belgium friendcollector of mine, who alerted me on your post, has also one in his private collection and did some research before and knew what it was.

Regards from Belgium and the Netherlands!

Hello Maurice,

great! This is one reason why I am happy to be a member of this forum; nearly all seldom seen items can be identified! Never have seen such a chopper before.

Regards,
Detlef

S.Workman · 5th July 2014, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Hello Rick,

It is from the Tengger Mountains.
In the museum of Leiden are several of them, all from the Tenggerese..

A good Belgium friendcollector of mine, who alerted me on your post, has also one in his private collection and did some research before and knew what it was.

Regards from Belgium and the Netherlands!

Where did you get those cool maps? They are very cool….

colin henshaw · 7th July 2014, 08:31 AM

Well done Maurice and friend, great identification !

Regards

Maurice · 7th July 2014, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Well done Maurice and friend, great identification !

Regards

You're welcome.
Great that it is appreciated so much Colin!

Rg,
Maurice

3rd July 2014, 01:36 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Unknown short sword. Where's it from? Philippines? Naga? It is not often that I run across something I haven't seen before so when I do I tend to gravitate towards those items. This is a very interesting piece. It is about 21" long with a very thick and heavy blade. This is probably the reason for the long steel ferrule. The grip is of unusual form but is 8 sided. I would place it in the 19th century so it has very good age. The 8 sided grip reminds me of the Philippines but the shape of the handle is unique for that region. The blade shape is also a bit unique. Very thick spine, heavy and currently out of polish so unsure of the blade construction. The long steel ferrule reminds me a bit of Kalinga axe but the weld is nearly seamless where as you tend to have an overlapping weld on a Kalinga axe. The other region I gravitated towards was the Naga/Assam regions. Again, not an exact match to anything from that region but certain similarities can be found. I'm hoping the collective knowledge of the forum has seen this form somewhere in an obscure reference or can lend additional hypothesis to the mix to help on the road to discovery. Attached Images

4th July 2014, 09:27 AM	#6
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	The structure of the piece reminds me a bit of this knife/chopper I had and posted on the forum a couple of years ago - the metal sleeve and faceted finial are both commonalities. My knife was thought to be from Java in the end. Attached Images

5th July 2014, 10:54 AM	#9
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	Tenggerese mountain Hello Rick, It is from the Tengger Mountains. In the museum of Leiden are several of them, all from the Tenggerese.. A good Belgium friendcollector of mine, who alerted me on your post, has also one in his private collection and did some research before and knew what it was. Regards from Belgium and the Netherlands! Attached Images Last edited by Maurice; 5th July 2014 at 11:13 AM.

5th July 2014, 12:14 PM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Images from the Dutch Tropenmuseum COLLECTIE TROPENMUSEUM Portret van een oude Tenggerese man TMnr 10005231.jpg Portrait of an old Tenggerese man Dated 1910 Attached Images

3rd July 2014, 09:12 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hello Rick, my feeling tells me somewhere from the mainland of SEA but frankly said I've never seen something similar. Regards, Detlef

3rd July 2014, 10:13 PM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	First guess is a dha-like something, Could also be a malay or indonesian chopper. Blade has something from a sikin panjang. Could be a rehilted thing from that area as well. Same story as Detlef told you, and i haven't seen anything like this either.

4th July 2014, 12:15 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Rick, It sure is nice to know that I am not alone when it comes to not being able to pass up the odd item when it shows up. I wish I could help on this, but like everyone else I have never seen anything like this before. Best, Robert

4th July 2014, 05:18 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Hi Rick: That's definitely unusual. It appears to have been much used and resharpened many times. There is quite a deficit in the edge at the center of the blade, suggesting it has been used repeatedly as a chopper. So maybe more of a tool than a weapon. Nothing about it really speaks to a specific origin. Ian.

5th July 2014, 03:11 AM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Thanks for the feedback guys. As I suspected we have a wide range of opinions which adds to the mystique and interest in this piece. If only these things could talk. I will review all the thoughts and add to them to mine and continue to work on a possible origin. Many thanks for the feedback.

5th July 2014, 06:17 AM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Rick: On further reflection I think the clue to what this was used for lies in the thickness of the blade. You say "very thick," but just how thick? If the spine measures more than a centimeter across, then the overwhelming use for such a blade in SE Asia is for splitting coconuts or chopping branches and small trees for firewood. Yes, we do find occasional weapons with blades of that thickness (the parang latok from Borneo, some of the klewang from Aceh, etc.), but seldom the focused wear on the blade that this one shows. Since the blade has seen some hard use, probably over an extended period of time, it is possible that the handle is a replacement. And the scabbard also looks fairly recent in manufacture, with those well preserved rattan strips and no obvious dings. My best guess would be a coconut splitting knife from northern Burma/Nagaland/Assam. Ian.

7th July 2014, 08:31 AM	#13
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Well done Maurice and friend, great identification ! Regards