Small axes for ID

[Atlantia]

Picked these up today.
Pretty sure they are a weapon form and not a tool this time! (despite their hammer backs)
Sizes as shown by compasion with my ancient mobile, rather small. Very sharp and well aged.
Punched dot decoration, similar but not a pair.
Shafts are clearly old but not original.
The decoration is in the form of flowers in a vase on both!
Managed to get the head off of the small one, it weighs about 350g.
Any ideas?

[Atlantia]

Obviously first thought was Indian, but.......
The closest things I can find is this one in Stones, described as:
"Ceylon or Malabar XVIII"

[Runjeet Singh]

Hard to put them geographically, perhaps Central Indian (Deccan?) going toward the South as you have already stated.

The punch dot decoration tells me victorian (late 19thC) and the 'flowers in a vase' decoration supports that, but the axes themselves look older.

Good find.

Thanks,
Runjeet

[Runjeet Singh]

Having a think, and I would perhaps edge towards Deccan and the north rather than the south for your two axes. This form and shape of axe head is quite common throughout India, and I think Stone was referring more (although not exactly) to this type:


Thanks,
Runjeet

[DhaDha]

They look great. How long are the shafts? Cheers

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by DhaDha

They look great. How long are the shafts? Cheers

Hi DhaDha,

At the moment the shafts are a piddly 16 1/2 inches.

Thanks for preempting my next question, What sort of shaft would suit them? Shape, length etc?

I was thinking, more like 20inches?

Best
Gene

[DhaDha]

Here's one with a small head and a longer shaft from Runjeet's site. 27", if I remember? Love the simple design.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by runjeet@akaalarms.com

Having a think, and I would perhaps edge towards Deccan and the north rather than the south for your two axes. This form and shape of axe head is quite common throughout India, and I think Stone was referring more (although not exactly) to this type:


Thanks,
Runjeet

Runjeet,

Thanks for your help. Very much appreciated
Would these be classed as saddle axes or something else?

Best
Gene

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Gene,
Illustration from the Chatterbox magazine March 30th 1872 of Roumanian smugglers complete with axe, obviously I can't be sure of the historical accuracy of the illustration.
Regards,
Norman.

[Emanuel]

Hi Gene,

Nice axes!! As a Romanian I'll chime in. I think Tim might be right. I have seen this type of axes in Romania. Sheep herders, woodsmen, etc... I remember one instance we met with a ranger in the forest and he was lamenting not being allowed to carry a rifle, so he had two of these smaller axes at his side and a knife (and lots of dogs ) to fend off wolves and bears as well as he could. I don't remember these dot markings though. I will visit Romania later this summer and will make a point of checking.

The similarity to Indian/Persian blades is understandable. The Romanian word for axe "topor" comes from the Indian "tabar" via the Ottomans.

Cheers,
Emanuel

[Emanuel]

Here are some miscellaneous Romanian axes demonstrating simple punched decoration.

E

[Jim McDougall]

Emanuel and Norman, beautifully done on the support for Romanian axes!!!!
Its really great to see suggestions followed through in this way, and show that Tim's well placed and already well supported note via his showing the tulip decoration seem entirely correct. I think the most fun here is when discussions are developed with such supporting material and we all get to learn more together.
Thank you so much guys!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Atlantia]

Tim, Norman and Emanuel
Excellent teamwork there
You've certainly made an argument for a possible eastern European origin.

I still can't help but feel that whatever they are, they are a specific type in their own right, so we should be able to find clear pictures of another example to compare them with.
They are so distinctive.

I'm still on the fence about them.
I can see merit for all of the theories proposed so far, but I think that until we find another identified example to nail them down we won't have a consensus.

I've expanded this request to other collecting forums and similarly, if anyone reading this knows for sure or can show/link to another of these for reference, then please email me at: gimmieitbaby@aol.com

Best
Gene

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Gene,
Illustration from the Chatterbox magazine March 30th 1872 of Roumanian smugglers complete with axe, obviously I can't be sure of the historical accuracy of the illustration.
Regards,
Norman.

Did you read the transcript of the accompanying passage to that picture Norman?

"CHATTER BOX
Published for the Proprietors by W. WELLS GARDNER, 10 Paternoster Row, London. Printed by John Strangeways,] [Castle Street, Leicester Square

No. 18. March 30, 1872. Weekly—One Halfpenny.

ROUMANIAN SMUGGLERS.

ROUMANIA, otherwise called Wallachia and Moldavia, a country watered by the Danube, and not far from the Black Sea, is inhabited by a wild and lawless set of people, who have proved themselves very difficult to rule, and who are constantly changing their government.

Smuggling in this land is by no means confined to the lower classes. Even the nobles are engaged in it. They smuggle goods chiefly to and from Austria, through the wild passes of the Carpathian Mountains. The horses they employ in this trade are small, wiry, and strong; as to the appearance of the men themselves, it is certainly picturesque, their costume being a mixture of that of several nations. The hat is Hungarian, generally gaily decorated; on their shoulder is an embroidered leather strap, which indicates that its owner has once served as a soldier in the Austrian armv; the linen shirt has a Wallachian cut. and the girdle round the waist, which is richly embroidered, betrays the same nationality. The foot-gear of the men in our illustration is not Wallachian, for they always wear sandals, and our cavalier with the hatchet in his hand wears high bpots. It is a strange article which these men are going to smuggle over into Austria, and which they carry in stone pitchers—it is leeches, which are abundant in Roumania, and upon which there is a heavy export duty. It is through one of the narrow, steep passes of the Carpathian .Mountains that these smugglers are passing, wishing of course to avoid the Custom-houses. They carry other things as well as leeches, probably a good stock of tobacco; and if they succeed m keeping their booty safe they will make a large profit. Seven villages in a lonely valley among the Carpathian Mountains are famous as the abode of smugglers, and to these places the government often send an armed band of Custom-house officers, who search every house, and generally carry off rich spoil, in spite of the clever way in which the smugglers hide their contraband goods."



Interestingly the site I found this transcript on also mentions a Description of the “mountaineers” in the Carpathians from 1844.


“The mountaineers here are called Huzzulen as in Bukovina. We found two of them sitting by the fire at the inn, leaning upon their hatchets. They told us that they were never without their hatchets, that they travelled with them, danced with them, and wore them as a part of their Sunday finery. They went to church with their hatchets, but did not take them into the church. They hung them upon wooden posts outside, from which each on coming out took down his own again.”