A Unique Kattar?

Tomb22 · 7th October 2007, 08:47 AM

Gentlemen: I am new to this forum. I have what appears to be a somewhat unique Katar. It has serrated edges. The blade is much more slender than the pictures I have seen on this site and elsewhere. The handle is quite small and the protective bars are considerably shorter then the ones you have shown. It is riveted which according to the Gatka site, indicates 16th to 17th century European blade. There is an interesting design on the blade, near the hilt of a Tiger biting a deer. The blade is 41.3 cm long. Overall length is 55.9 cm.

I am looking for more information about history. Have any of you seen this style before? I have been told the following about the blade by a very nice gentleman whose picture sure makes sense as follows:

"The blade is from a "Cobra" sword. Here is a near-identical one: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1941 . Artzi Yarom from Oriental-Arms has it listed as an Indo-Afghan Pahari sword, but I understand its origin is more likely the Deccan (central Indian plateau). 16th century is likely, these blades are old and rare, and certainly local, not European."

The same gentleman indicated that there are several folks on this forum that have significant knowledge about Kattars. I would really appreciate your comments about any history or understanding about the attached pictures.

Thank you,
Tom Binford

rand · 9th October 2007, 03:54 AM

Hello Tom,

Here is a bit of history relating to the name of your dagger. The popular collectors term is katar, but this terminology is based on a miistake by Eggerton in his own book on Indian Arms and Armor where ealier in the book he used the correct name. but the term katar became very popular because Eggertons books was the mainrefernece for Indian arms and armor for decades. Now with more information published it has been established that beyond a doubtm Jamadhar, Jamdhar or Jamdhara is the correct term at th time of use.

To quote from Pants
"Indian Arms and Armor Vol II) page 163, "The etymology of the word jamadhar, as given by J. Shakespear, is jam, (from the Sanskrit yama i.e., death or God of Death) and dhar (from dhaar or sharp edge or dadh i.e., tooth).

On the blade of one of the jajadhars the name of the weapon together with its explanation is explicitly given. The inscription in Sanskrit reads " this Kadarika jamadhar i.e., the tooth of the God of Death"(fig. 507)."

Another term that may be used for you dagger if the blade thickens at the point to form an iron piercing tip is jamadhar-zirah-bhonk.

rand

Jim McDougall · 9th October 2007, 08:47 AM

Hi Tom,
Pretty fantastic looking katar! and I am inclined to agree with the Deccan attribution, though I would defer to Jens for the final word on that as he much more familiar with katars.

The weapon that you refer to from Oriental Arms does indeed have a similar shaped blade with reinforced point, however does not of course have the serrated edges. There have been quite a few discussions on this unusual blade feature ( coincidentally on the concurrent thread 'what did I buy? on an unusual polearm).

The sword on Oriental Arms is , as you note, described as Indo-Afghan. This probably derives from other examples with this dynamically flared blade forte that had similiar blades and Afghan form hilts similar to the paluoar. This same blade feature is seen on other Indian sword blades with nagan symbolism and the source of the 'cobra' term. The 'pahari' term is actually used in degree describing 'the mountain people' .

It is interesting to note that it is sometimes difficult to determine where dagger ends and sword begins, as in the case of katars where the blades can sometimes reach 30". The note you mention concerning riveted blades is also interesting, but this was not only used on European blades. In Stone (fig.434 #19) a katar with serpentine blade of 23" riveted to hilt, suggesting this practice applied to unusual blades that are native, as you have noted with yours.

The large discoid form on your blade seems to correspond to certain high quality weapons described in Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Armour" (p.123) as having a chakra at the forte of the blade, rather than the nagan or cobra association in the Oriental Arms example. Although not exactly a disc it seems to align more with that than the flared nagan shape. It is important to note that the 'chakra' or disc, is also known as the circular weapon also termed the quoit and most often associated with Sikh weaponry. In this case the chakra disc alludes to classical Hindu mythology and swords incorporating this device are extremely highly regarded as kingly weapons (p.240). This , along with the very unusual serrated edges, suggest this katar is likely a court weapon.

Rand, excellent reference you have noted concerning the use of the term katar and the misnomer perpetuated by Egerton. This has come up a number of times over years in discussions and much like so many examples of misapplied terms for weapons,the terms have become so entrenched in parlance that efforts to revise them have proven fruitless. Actually I wince as I think of this every time I write on katars, but stick to the well worn term anyway!

Thank you for adding it here for the record.

All best regards,
Jim

Tomb22 · 9th October 2007, 08:49 AM

Hi Rand,
Thanks for your information regarding the proper name. I have looked at many of the comments on this forum and have appreciated the depth of knowledge and willingness to share from the group as well as the patience that seems to be extended to us newbies. Very admirable.

This particular Jamadhar seems to have very sharp teeth. I have looked at a lot of pictures and this is the only serrated one that I have seen. That, and what appears to be a "Cobra blade" is why I felt that it might be a little unique. I have not been able to determine any wootz or other metalurgical characteristics. The blade appears to have been polished???

Also, the serrations and sharpness of the blade make it seem like it was to be used in "slicing and dicing" as well as what appears to be the more conventional "pushing" or "punching."

Thanks again for your information. I have received this particular piece from my grandfather through my mother. He was a collector but more along the lines of World War I and II German Lugers. I am most interested in as much information and history as is available, particularly about age, region. I understand that it would be almost impossible to know the history of this particular blade, but it would be really interesting to know more about the type and possible uses.

I was told by the gentleman that showed me the Cobra blade that,

"The extensive decorations in the form of chiselling and gold koftgari (inlay) indicate that this was a court piece, not a battle weapon. You've kept it in good condition, but it is apparent that it never suffered any damage. The pierced work was not to keep the piece light, rather it was decorative. Some hilts in the south - Tanjore for example - feature extremely complex fretwork in silver and gold. The blades themselves are sometimes very delicately pierced with intricate designs."

Tom

Tomb22 · 9th October 2007, 09:18 AM

Thanks to you too Jim,
In observing the many discussions on this forum, you seem to have not only extensive knowledge but also a wisdom and calmness that keeps things flowing smoothly.

I appreciate your comments and they seem to confirm the possible court use. Wouldn't that possibility help to narrow down its history a little?

One of my comments is that the hand area of the hilt seems very small to me and I have small hands for a man. Also, the hilt area has many, numerous tiny holes that go all the way through. I had thought that maybe it was created for a female? The gentleman quoted previously, indicated that he was of the school of thought that the size was more related to smaller nature of men at that time and that the holes were part of the decorative design. I had felt that maybe the holes were to lighten the weight? Wouldn't they have to use something in the casting to make the holes? Or did they actually have some device that would allow them to "drill" so to speak?

I apologize for not using both cm and inches in the original post. The blade is 16.25 inches and the overall length is 22 inches. The circle is 2.4 inches in diameter. It seems like the "chiseling" to make the hilt would take a lot of time. I am amazed at I look at some of the other edged weapons on this forum how intricate as well as labor intensive the work of creating some of these beautiful blades were.

Regards
Tom

katana · 9th October 2007, 04:59 PM

Hi Tom,
Beautiful Katar

There is the possibillity that the small holes in the hilt is where chain mail or leather protection was fixed, usually by small metal rings. If this is the case it surely suggests that not only was this intended for use, but also the owner had very high status.

David

Tomb22 · 9th October 2007, 05:34 PM

David,
Thanks for the input. If you look at the 3rd picture down, the one showing the Tiger and hilt - Then focus on the area where the 3 rivets are, you will see many little tiny dark spots all through out that dark area. Those are the piercings or "drill holes" as I call them. They go completely through the metal. They are also in and all through the dark areas of the protective bars. They are so small and so uniform, that I could think of no other reason then making the piece lighter. But, then as my friend from the other forum indicated, he thought that it might be part of the "decoration."

I know they are hard to see in these pictures and I will try and see if I can get a better close up. My camera doesn't do as well as I want with closeups so, will probably borrow a friends.

One of the fun things about this group is that with so many sharp people, thoughts and ideas pop out that I might not have ever thought about so, I really appreciate all comments as I am here to learn.

Thanks again,
Tom

Marius66 · 21st July 2023, 02:14 PM

Hello dear members,

I will soon receive this katar,
I hope it is a genuine one

It looks really fantaisist , and wanted not to buy it but
hopefully I found this post and tried to go on for.many money.
Am I right ? 🙏

fernando · 21st July 2023, 04:47 PM

Oh ... i find it a great example

.

Marius66 · 22nd July 2023, 12:27 AM

Hello,
Thank you for your reply Fernando !

I forgot to mention the size: 60cm/ 23,6 cm long

I wonder what they could really cut with this strange wavy and heavy serrated blade ?

Kind regards

fernando · 22nd July 2023, 12:32 PM

Marius, you should never be surprised with the most unusual Indian wepons. Look at our member BobA's example ... if he doesn't mind

.

.

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2023, 06:00 PM

As noted, the edged weaponry of India is often not just unusual, but remarkably innovative. There are not always pragmatic solutions to many of the innovative features in these weapons, which were often created more for the display of the skills and craftmanship of the artisans making them.

The serrated blade is not for specific effect, but more symbolically aligned with the revered sword Dhu l' Fiqar of the Prophet Mohammed, which is often represented with bifurcated point and serrated edge blade.

Many weapons of this type were created during the huge celebrations of the British Raj known as durbars. These huge events created an almost 'fair' like atmosphere (they were held in 1877, 1903 and 1911) in which many bazaars hawking weaponry were assembled throughout the festivities.
While these major events were in the years mentioned, there were many less extravagant events in between with similar character in key cities.

This katar has the enlarged disc representing the chakra, one of the weapons of Shiva, and associated largely with the Pahari kingdoms in NW India, and actually an unusual feature seen on various sword types.

9th October 2007, 03:54 AM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	History of Jamadhar Hello Tom, Here is a bit of history relating to the name of your dagger. The popular collectors term is katar, but this terminology is based on a miistake by Eggerton in his own book on Indian Arms and Armor where ealier in the book he used the correct name. but the term katar became very popular because Eggertons books was the mainrefernece for Indian arms and armor for decades. Now with more information published it has been established that beyond a doubtm Jamadhar, Jamdhar or Jamdhara is the correct term at th time of use. To quote from Pants "Indian Arms and Armor Vol II) page 163, "The etymology of the word jamadhar, as given by J. Shakespear, is jam, (from the Sanskrit yama i.e., death or God of Death) and dhar (from dhaar or sharp edge or dadh i.e., tooth). On the blade of one of the jajadhars the name of the weapon together with its explanation is explicitly given. The inscription in Sanskrit reads " this Kadarika jamadhar i.e., the tooth of the God of Death"(fig. 507)." Another term that may be used for you dagger if the blade thickens at the point to form an iron piercing tip is jamadhar-zirah-bhonk. rand Last edited by rand; 9th October 2007 at 08:07 AM.

9th October 2007, 08:47 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Tom, Pretty fantastic looking katar! and I am inclined to agree with the Deccan attribution, though I would defer to Jens for the final word on that as he much more familiar with katars. The weapon that you refer to from Oriental Arms does indeed have a similar shaped blade with reinforced point, however does not of course have the serrated edges. There have been quite a few discussions on this unusual blade feature ( coincidentally on the concurrent thread 'what did I buy? on an unusual polearm). The sword on Oriental Arms is , as you note, described as Indo-Afghan. This probably derives from other examples with this dynamically flared blade forte that had similiar blades and Afghan form hilts similar to the paluoar. This same blade feature is seen on other Indian sword blades with nagan symbolism and the source of the 'cobra' term. The 'pahari' term is actually used in degree describing 'the mountain people' . It is interesting to note that it is sometimes difficult to determine where dagger ends and sword begins, as in the case of katars where the blades can sometimes reach 30". The note you mention concerning riveted blades is also interesting, but this was not only used on European blades. In Stone (fig.434 #19) a katar with serpentine blade of 23" riveted to hilt, suggesting this practice applied to unusual blades that are native, as you have noted with yours. The large discoid form on your blade seems to correspond to certain high quality weapons described in Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Armour" (p.123) as having a chakra at the forte of the blade, rather than the nagan or cobra association in the Oriental Arms example. Although not exactly a disc it seems to align more with that than the flared nagan shape. It is important to note that the 'chakra' or disc, is also known as the circular weapon also termed the quoit and most often associated with Sikh weaponry. In this case the chakra disc alludes to classical Hindu mythology and swords incorporating this device are extremely highly regarded as kingly weapons (p.240). This , along with the very unusual serrated edges, suggest this katar is likely a court weapon. Rand, excellent reference you have noted concerning the use of the term katar and the misnomer perpetuated by Egerton. This has come up a number of times over years in discussions and much like so many examples of misapplied terms for weapons,the terms have become so entrenched in parlance that efforts to revise them have proven fruitless. Actually I wince as I think of this every time I write on katars, but stick to the well worn term anyway! Thank you for adding it here for the record. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 10th October 2007 at 04:10 AM.

9th October 2007, 08:49 AM	#4
Tomb22 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 17	Thanks Rand Hi Rand, Thanks for your information regarding the proper name. I have looked at many of the comments on this forum and have appreciated the depth of knowledge and willingness to share from the group as well as the patience that seems to be extended to us newbies. Very admirable. This particular Jamadhar seems to have very sharp teeth. I have looked at a lot of pictures and this is the only serrated one that I have seen. That, and what appears to be a "Cobra blade" is why I felt that it might be a little unique. I have not been able to determine any wootz or other metalurgical characteristics. The blade appears to have been polished??? Also, the serrations and sharpness of the blade make it seem like it was to be used in "slicing and dicing" as well as what appears to be the more conventional "pushing" or "punching." Thanks again for your information. I have received this particular piece from my grandfather through my mother. He was a collector but more along the lines of World War I and II German Lugers. I am most interested in as much information and history as is available, particularly about age, region. I understand that it would be almost impossible to know the history of this particular blade, but it would be really interesting to know more about the type and possible uses. I was told by the gentleman that showed me the Cobra blade that, "The extensive decorations in the form of chiselling and gold koftgari (inlay) indicate that this was a court piece, not a battle weapon. You've kept it in good condition, but it is apparent that it never suffered any damage. The pierced work was not to keep the piece light, rather it was decorative. Some hilts in the south - Tanjore for example - feature extremely complex fretwork in silver and gold. The blades themselves are sometimes very delicately pierced with intricate designs." Tom

9th October 2007, 05:34 PM	#7
Tomb22 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 17	Thanks for "coolness" David, Thanks for the input. If you look at the 3rd picture down, the one showing the Tiger and hilt - Then focus on the area where the 3 rivets are, you will see many little tiny dark spots all through out that dark area. Those are the piercings or "drill holes" as I call them. They go completely through the metal. They are also in and all through the dark areas of the protective bars. They are so small and so uniform, that I could think of no other reason then making the piece lighter. But, then as my friend from the other forum indicated, he thought that it might be part of the "decoration." I know they are hard to see in these pictures and I will try and see if I can get a better close up. My camera doesn't do as well as I want with closeups so, will probably borrow a friends. One of the fun things about this group is that with so many sharp people, thoughts and ideas pop out that I might not have ever thought about so, I really appreciate all comments as I am here to learn. Thanks again, Tom

21st July 2023, 02:14 PM	#8
Marius66 Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 103	Hello dear members, I will soon receive this katar, I hope it is a genuine one It looks really fantaisist , and wanted not to buy it but hopefully I found this post and tried to go on for.many money. Am I right ? 🙏 Attached Images

7th October 2007, 08:47 AM	#1
Tomb22 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 17	A Unique Kattar? Gentlemen: I am new to this forum. I have what appears to be a somewhat unique Katar. It has serrated edges. The blade is much more slender than the pictures I have seen on this site and elsewhere. The handle is quite small and the protective bars are considerably shorter then the ones you have shown. It is riveted which according to the Gatka site, indicates 16th to 17th century European blade. There is an interesting design on the blade, near the hilt of a Tiger biting a deer. The blade is 41.3 cm long. Overall length is 55.9 cm. I am looking for more information about history. Have any of you seen this style before? I have been told the following about the blade by a very nice gentleman whose picture sure makes sense as follows: "The blade is from a "Cobra" sword. Here is a near-identical one: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1941 . Artzi Yarom from Oriental-Arms has it listed as an Indo-Afghan Pahari sword, but I understand its origin is more likely the Deccan (central Indian plateau). 16th century is likely, these blades are old and rare, and certainly local, not European." The same gentleman indicated that there are several folks on this forum that have significant knowledge about Kattars. I would really appreciate your comments about any history or understanding about the attached pictures. Thank you, Tom Binford Attached Images

9th October 2007, 09:18 AM	#5
Tomb22 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 17	Thanks to you too Jim, In observing the many discussions on this forum, you seem to have not only extensive knowledge but also a wisdom and calmness that keeps things flowing smoothly. I appreciate your comments and they seem to confirm the possible court use. Wouldn't that possibility help to narrow down its history a little? One of my comments is that the hand area of the hilt seems very small to me and I have small hands for a man. Also, the hilt area has many, numerous tiny holes that go all the way through. I had thought that maybe it was created for a female? The gentleman quoted previously, indicated that he was of the school of thought that the size was more related to smaller nature of men at that time and that the holes were part of the decorative design. I had felt that maybe the holes were to lighten the weight? Wouldn't they have to use something in the casting to make the holes? Or did they actually have some device that would allow them to "drill" so to speak? I apologize for not using both cm and inches in the original post. The blade is 16.25 inches and the overall length is 22 inches. The circle is 2.4 inches in diameter. It seems like the "chiseling" to make the hilt would take a lot of time. I am amazed at I look at some of the other edged weapons on this forum how intricate as well as labor intensive the work of creating some of these beautiful blades were. Regards Tom

9th October 2007, 04:59 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tom, Beautiful Katar There is the possibillity that the small holes in the hilt is where chain mail or leather protection was fixed, usually by small metal rings. If this is the case it surely suggests that not only was this intended for use, but also the owner had very high status. David

21st July 2023, 04:47 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Oh ... i find it a great example .

22nd July 2023, 12:27 AM	#10
Marius66 Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 103	Hello, Thank you for your reply Fernando ! I forgot to mention the size: 60cm/ 23,6 cm long I wonder what they could really cut with this strange wavy and heavy serrated blade ? Kind regards

22nd July 2023, 12:32 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Marius, you should never be surprised with the most unusual Indian wepons. Look at our member BobA's example ... if he doesn't mind . . Attached Images

22nd July 2023, 06:00 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	As noted, the edged weaponry of India is often not just unusual, but remarkably innovative. There are not always pragmatic solutions to many of the innovative features in these weapons, which were often created more for the display of the skills and craftmanship of the artisans making them. The serrated blade is not for specific effect, but more symbolically aligned with the revered sword Dhu l' Fiqar of the Prophet Mohammed, which is often represented with bifurcated point and serrated edge blade. Many weapons of this type were created during the huge celebrations of the British Raj known as durbars. These huge events created an almost 'fair' like atmosphere (they were held in 1877, 1903 and 1911) in which many bazaars hawking weaponry were assembled throughout the festivities. While these major events were in the years mentioned, there were many less extravagant events in between with similar character in key cities. This katar has the enlarged disc representing the chakra, one of the weapons of Shiva, and associated largely with the Pahari kingdoms in NW India, and actually an unusual feature seen on various sword types. Attached Images