Gold hilted yataghan

erlikhan · 10th December 2004, 12:47 PM

http://www.pbase.com/erlikhan2/inbox
Pictures of the gold engraved metal(iron or steel) hilted yataghan i have. Somebody told that this metal hilt type was used by Levends.(Naval soldiers and officers in Ottoman Turkey). As the sea was salty and humid, horn and ivory was getting deformed and damaged in short time. That was why metal was preferred. Can this be correct?

Mark · 10th December 2004, 04:08 PM

Man, that is beautiful! Yatagans are definately my second-favorite sword type.

Rivkin · 10th December 2004, 04:25 PM

Sorry ! Wrong thread !

Rivkin · 10th December 2004, 04:26 PM

Sorry.

Battara · 10th December 2004, 08:26 PM

I would think that that is why white metal and brass hilts were used. They don't corrode as easily. Yours appears to be steel or iron with kofgari. I would doubt that it would be used for the ocean since iron and steel would corrode more quickly (and take off that lovely koftgari).

Radu Transylvanicus · 11th December 2004, 09:01 AM

Seems to me this Yataghan is the early type, also a nice specimen ... I have reserves to believe this blade is a sailor type, damage to natural materials is nothing compared to what sea salt does to any feroneous blade, eating it alive !!! ; talk to any scuba diver and they will confirm it , not that Ottomans were swimming with their gear but its been brought up as reason...
I`ve seen fairly similar pieces from mostly 17th century at the Wallachian demnitaries (nobles) many of Greek or Macedonian origins (Fanariots) ... all comming from past southeast of Romanian border ...
Reminds me somehow of the ones made by Ahmed Tekelu, royal armorer ...

Yannis · 11th December 2004, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

http://www.pbase.com/erlikhan2/inbox
Pictures of the gold engraved metal(iron or steel) hilted yataghan i have. Somebody told that this metal hilt type was used by Levends.(Naval soldiers and officers in Ottoman Turkey). As the sea was salty and humid, horn and ivory was getting deformed and damaged in short time. That was why metal was preferred. Can this be correct?

I cant say about materials and the sea. But this yataghan have small ears and I have read once that sailors prefered them, because they didnt mess with the ropes on the boat.

BTW, the word "Levend" is in use in greek language too. It comes from medevial italian words "Leventi" (sailor from the east) > "Levante" (east).

Jim McDougall · 14th December 2004, 05:25 AM

This is a most interesting topic concerning yataghans, which is a sword form whose variation and specific ancestry is often the subject of debate. It seems over the years there have been a number of vague references to 'naval yataghans' but none seem to have definition or corroborated support.
It would be surprising to discover a specific form designated or favored by the Ottoman navy and it would be interesting to see examples of yataghans with naval provenance. While practical perspective is considered for the materials of weapons used at sea, it would seem plausible that negative effects might effect choices, but not necessarily. The dress weapons for officers would reflect decorative fashion popular at the time, and with the elaborate costume of the Ottomans, practical austerity would be unlikely.
As for the sailors , "...galley sailors called levants were recruited from coastal Turks, Greeks, Albanians, Dalmatians and North Africans" (" Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300-1774" Dr. David Nicolle, Osprey, p.25).
This would suggest these 'levants' *might have carried all manner of personal weapons from thier own homelands.
The Ottoman naval officers may have carried 'fighting' weapons of equally wide range, depending on personal choice or availability of local forms. These certainly would have included yataghans, less lavishly decorated.

* the most familar use of the term Levant is of course to the eastern shores of the Meditteranean and Aegean, esp. Syria, Lebanon and Israel.

Best regards,
Jim

erlikhan · 14th December 2004, 10:31 PM

Thank you all for joining the discussion. The sword was once more beautiful i guess, with all gold inscriptions on the hilt which are now quite warn off due to handling a lot.
Iron would corrode in ocean environment, thats correct. Then perhaps the purpose of iron preference is something different. Maybe the ease of applying koftgari onto iron. It cant be done onto ivory. What I know, is that there is no similar sample among 50-60 yataghans in the military museum.
The word levent definitely is not Turkish. Sounds from the same origin with the word "levantin", which certainly comes from French word "lever" which means "the rise of sun" describing eastern Mediterennean. (I dont know French, anybody please correct it if it is wrong).

eftihis · 15th December 2004, 12:23 AM

This is a very interesting topic!
I was always confused by the term "nautical yataghan". The reason is that i know 2 types of yataghans with that name. The first is the one in the photo below (from Greek war museum). The hilt somehow reminds the karabela hilt, but the blade is classic yataghan. I have heard that they used this to avoid interfearing of the big ears of classical yataghans with the ropes and the small areas of the ships.
But i have seen described also as "nautical" all the silver yataghans that have small ears like exactly the one that Erlikhan has. These yataghans have usually a ship carved in the scabbard, among the other designs.

Furthermore, yataghans that were made in Crete (at least their silver work was made in Crete) have all small ears like the "nautical" and the one of Erlikhan.
Anybody can help?

erlikhan · 15th December 2004, 12:44 AM

Eftihis, the one in your picture is very interesting. Like half breed of different animals. But i guess its long cross guard should interfere with ropes too, if there was such a problem in ships. The scabbard of my sample has definite traces of some mounting which has gone long time ago. Now only leather left. Then perhaps mine once had mountings with ship engraving too.
Is that museum in Crete? Do they have ancient Greek bronze and iron swords? If so can you post their pictures or if you can't do that, at least describe what they are like?

eftihis · 11th June 2005, 11:28 AM

Hallo,
Further to this old post i am posting the photos of another gold hilted yataghan.

The gold inlay in the handle is mostly gone, and below you can easily see the coroded metal. The inlays on blade thought are intact and very fine.
Could someone translate the incriptions?

There is an inscription arround the star os Solomon, and on the other side there is the tugra of a three tailed pasha, that means that this belonged to a very high rank official. Can anyone recognise the name?

Best Regards,
Eftihis

tom hyle · 11th June 2005, 01:41 PM

Notice the pinky pad and the flat part of the bolster that extends out over the blade.

eftihis · 12th June 2005, 11:19 AM

WHat do you mean Tom?

10th December 2004, 12:47 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Gold hilted yataghan http://www.pbase.com/erlikhan2/inbox Pictures of the gold engraved metal(iron or steel) hilted yataghan i have. Somebody told that this metal hilt type was used by Levends.(Naval soldiers and officers in Ottoman Turkey). As the sea was salty and humid, horn and ivory was getting deformed and damaged in short time. That was why metal was preferred. Can this be correct?

15th December 2004, 12:23 AM	#10
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Nautical yataghan This is a very interesting topic! I was always confused by the term "nautical yataghan". The reason is that i know 2 types of yataghans with that name. The first is the one in the photo below (from Greek war museum). The hilt somehow reminds the karabela hilt, but the blade is classic yataghan. I have heard that they used this to avoid interfearing of the big ears of classical yataghans with the ropes and the small areas of the ships. But i have seen described also as "nautical" all the silver yataghans that have small ears like exactly the one that Erlikhan has. These yataghans have usually a ship carved in the scabbard, among the other designs. Furthermore, yataghans that were made in Crete (at least their silver work was made in Crete) have all small ears like the "nautical" and the one of Erlikhan. Anybody can help? Attached Images

11th June 2005, 11:28 AM	#12
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Gold hilted and gold inscription yataghan translation? Hallo, Further to this old post i am posting the photos of another gold hilted yataghan. The gold inlay in the handle is mostly gone, and below you can easily see the coroded metal. The inlays on blade thought are intact and very fine. Could someone translate the incriptions? There is an inscription arround the star os Solomon, and on the other side there is the tugra of a three tailed pasha, that means that this belonged to a very high rank official. Can anyone recognise the name? Best Regards, Eftihis Attached Images

10th December 2004, 04:08 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Man, that is beautiful! Yatagans are definately my second-favorite sword type.

10th December 2004, 04:25 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Sorry ! Wrong thread !

10th December 2004, 04:26 PM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Sorry.

10th December 2004, 08:26 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I would think that that is why white metal and brass hilts were used. They don't corrode as easily. Yours appears to be steel or iron with kofgari. I would doubt that it would be used for the ocean since iron and steel would corrode more quickly (and take off that lovely koftgari).

11th December 2004, 09:01 AM	#6
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Seems to me this Yataghan is the early type, also a nice specimen ... I have reserves to believe this blade is a sailor type, damage to natural materials is nothing compared to what sea salt does to any feroneous blade, eating it alive !!! ; talk to any scuba diver and they will confirm it , not that Ottomans were swimming with their gear but its been brought up as reason... I`ve seen fairly similar pieces from mostly 17th century at the Wallachian demnitaries (nobles) many of Greek or Macedonian origins (Fanariots) ... all comming from past southeast of Romanian border ... Reminds me somehow of the ones made by Ahmed Tekelu, royal armorer ...

14th December 2004, 05:25 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	This is a most interesting topic concerning yataghans, which is a sword form whose variation and specific ancestry is often the subject of debate. It seems over the years there have been a number of vague references to 'naval yataghans' but none seem to have definition or corroborated support. It would be surprising to discover a specific form designated or favored by the Ottoman navy and it would be interesting to see examples of yataghans with naval provenance. While practical perspective is considered for the materials of weapons used at sea, it would seem plausible that negative effects might effect choices, but not necessarily. The dress weapons for officers would reflect decorative fashion popular at the time, and with the elaborate costume of the Ottomans, practical austerity would be unlikely. As for the sailors , "...galley sailors called levants were recruited from coastal Turks, Greeks, Albanians, Dalmatians and North Africans" (" Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300-1774" Dr. David Nicolle, Osprey, p.25). This would suggest these 'levants' might have carried all manner of personal weapons from thier own homelands. The Ottoman naval officers may have carried 'fighting' weapons of equally wide range, depending on personal choice or availability of local forms. These certainly would have included yataghans, less lavishly decorated. the most familar use of the term Levant is of course to the eastern shores of the Meditteranean and Aegean, esp. Syria, Lebanon and Israel. Best regards, Jim

14th December 2004, 10:31 PM	#9
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Thank you all for joining the discussion. The sword was once more beautiful i guess, with all gold inscriptions on the hilt which are now quite warn off due to handling a lot. Iron would corrode in ocean environment, thats correct. Then perhaps the purpose of iron preference is something different. Maybe the ease of applying koftgari onto iron. It cant be done onto ivory. What I know, is that there is no similar sample among 50-60 yataghans in the military museum. The word levent definitely is not Turkish. Sounds from the same origin with the word "levantin", which certainly comes from French word "lever" which means "the rise of sun" describing eastern Mediterennean. (I dont know French, anybody please correct it if it is wrong).

15th December 2004, 12:44 AM	#11
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Eftihis, the one in your picture is very interesting. Like half breed of different animals. But i guess its long cross guard should interfere with ropes too, if there was such a problem in ships. The scabbard of my sample has definite traces of some mounting which has gone long time ago. Now only leather left. Then perhaps mine once had mountings with ship engraving too. Is that museum in Crete? Do they have ancient Greek bronze and iron swords? If so can you post their pictures or if you can't do that, at least describe what they are like?

11th June 2005, 01:41 PM	#13
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Notice the pinky pad and the flat part of the bolster that extends out over the blade.

12th June 2005, 11:19 AM	#14
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	WHat do you mean Tom?